Criminal Punishment - Your Thoughts

[intet_at_tabe]

I see lots of discussion on how inhumane the death penalty is and how it "violates" human rights ... but how about the human rights of the victims?

The victims who got murdered had no trial, had no jail time; they were handed (mostly without even knowing) the "death penalty" and were executed without any consideration to any "approved standards" of human rights. Sounds like the criminals are being allowed to live their lives out until natural death when the victims didn't have the choice.

In my perception, the laws are doing more these days to protect the criminals than they are doing to protect the innocent. We need stiffer penalties, and those penalties need to be carried out within days ... not months or years or decades afterward.

Keeping that 74 year old Austrian geezer alive is doing him a favor ... doesn't have to worry not about continued health care, having a place to live, free meals, and other amenities lots of poor people do without. Keeping him locked up in a cellar without outside contact isn't the answer either ... he will not "learn" from his mistakes ... people like that cannot be rehabilitated, and it's a waste of our time to even try.

I best clam up before I get a nasty-gram from my boss here ... :nut:

(Disclaimer: the thoughts above are my own and do not reflect the opinions of this forum community, its staff members or the site owner.) :grin:

Master Krummhorn :tiphat:

Relevant question from you, but to answer this you must respect the laws of each country, which mean the answer can only be given by the Justice system of a particular country and international laws in relation to the solicitors, who from each their bench procecute or defend and the judges, who will be the ones to decide on the matter.

Public opinion, the press and individual emotions from none professional judgements based on hatred rarely give the right answer. That´s why we all must respect the laws and our legal binding system evolved form centuries within the courts.

Just think of the Nurnberg Process in Germany post the WWII towards "Crimes against humanity"? Or the former hero in American sports Mr. O.J. and his dream team of lawyers in the USA court case brought to all our homes throughout the world by TV?

Respectfully,

 

[Corno Dolce]

My stomach churns and growls whenever I read about that nut case Fritzl. What he did was naked radical evil. My fiancee said to me that Fritzl is criminally insane and needs to be in a psychiatric ward for the criminally insane.

 

[marval]

I think Fritzl probably is criminally insane, whatever the case, sometime he must have realised what he was doing. Also the wife, so scared of him she daren't say anything? or thinking rather someone else than me.

I agree Krummhorn, here in the Uk we are always told you can't interfere with the prisoner's human rights. As far as I am concerned they gave away their human rights, when they committed the crime.

It is definitely time to put the victim first, or families. The criminal did not put anyone first during the crime, so why should we put them first afterwards.

I think you have to be sure you have the right person before puting them to death, but if capital punishment does work as a deterrent, maybe it is woth thinking about.


Margaret

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Ms. Margaret and Muza dear and the guys.

You could be right Ms. Margaret.

The evolving story of the monster or/and perhaps criminal insane Herr Josef Fritzl, Amstetten, Austria shows he had spend 18 months in prison, convicted for the rape of a woman from the city Linz, some 40-50 kilometres from Amstetten back in 1967. Documented by the police in Linz. The same documents also show, he was suspected of another rape and for flashing in front of a child, to which he got arrested also in Linz. The woman who had been raped back in 1967, saw his picture in the Austrian news on the case, and she recognised his eyes at once: "I´ll never forget his eyes". She imidiately decided to step forward and tell her story to the Austrian News paper Krone Zeitung and the police in Amstetten.

A former tavel friend of Herr Fritzl told the police, he had travel with Herr Fritzl several times from Austria to Pattaya, Thailand. Pattaya, the center for pedophiles from all over the world in Thailand. The friend delievered a video from a beach at Pattaya to prove his statement. In the video Herr Josef Fritzl receives massage from a young boy at the beach.

The lawyer of Herr Josef Fritzl, Herr Rudolf Mayer and the procecuting public attorney have both asked the court for a test of the sanity (or the opposite) of Herr Fritzl.

The public procecuting attorney gave a press announcement yesterday saying Herr Josef Fritzl has admitted to the false imprisonment for 24 years, that he is the father of the seven children of his own daughter, that he burned the child who died. But he won´t say anything else to the police or the press.

One should not think it could be worse, and now it shows he has been to Pattaya several times and has been convicted on a rape charge as long as back to 1967 - 41 years ago. Who took care of the basement and the children all this time, while he was on holidays far from Austria???

 

[marval]

Yes and reading today's paper, someone asked what would have happened if Fritzl had not come back. Suppose he had had an accident and died in Thailand, what would have happened then. He was the only one, so they say that knew the number to the lock on the cellar, but as you say Intet who took care while he was away. (Mrs Fritzl perhaps?)


Margaret

 

[Muza]

Guys, Im pretty sure the wife is not all that innocent. And by the way, if she infact did not know anything, she deserves to be arrested and thrown in prison just for being so damn stupid!!! imho

 

[intet_at_tabe]

It gets worse guys, please read this link from May 2: http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/breaki...orror-fathers-past-record-overshadows-inquiry

about how other tennants at the same adress as the Fritzl family (the word family, does seem to be the wrong word here), noticed that their own food went missing. A dog who lived with a guy there, barked whenever they passed by one of the two very heavy steel doors, wich could only be opened by remote controle, with no handle from the inside.

I am more an more certain that more people than his wife, new something odd was going on.

In the link it says, that the Police from one part of Austria and the police from another part of Austria - do not communicate at all. Perhaps this whole "House of Horror" event could have been avoided, years prior to 2008.

Honestly, I don´t believe in the "criminal insane" idea. There´s too much evidence already of the typical pedophile behaviour probably beginning back in 1967 or straight after his release from prison after 18 months.

The worst about these men (here), typical between 30-60 (white skin) are that they appear to others like everyone else. One can not recognize them on the street, looking at them, but they are all rich, and can travel worldwide on airplanes any day of the week, they communicate through the internet and all have been to Pattaya in Thailand, like Herr Josef Fritzl several times. They are typically married, have children of their own, and a longer education or own a buisness.

Pattaya is the unfortunate mecca for pedophiles in this part of the world, where parents either sell their children or they are stolen on a common street. The powerty is unbelieveable at Pattaya. Prices for a young boy or a girl below 10 years of age in the brothels of Pattaya, according to the Danish journalists, who made four programs for the TV2 Channel two years ago, are less than 40 dollars payed to the middle men, who controle the brothels.

The police force in Thailand is corrupt as we all know, so the chances of a surprice raid into the local suburband city in Pattaya, where the local mobsters controle the brothels - only for children - without anyone knowing it hours before the Police might arrive - are next to none.

The only way to stop this unfortunate lucrative buisness of devastating character for the children, is to catch some of these white guys, traveling to Pattaya from Europe, South Africa, The USA and Australia, then show their pictures to the world, and send them behind bars for life.

 

[marval]

Hi Intet

I totally agree with you, stop the paedophiles from travelling and make sure they have no access to children. After all, I don't know if you remember the case of Gary Glitter?

But other people had suspicions, sorry if I had any worrying thoughts about someone I would talk to the police. Something on this scale could surely not go totally unnoticed.

If I had been the older girls mother, I would have found it very strange that she left her children on my doorstep and only spoke to her father.

Sorry too many things were happening and being ignored.

My only hope is that the captives can eventually have a normal life, if that is at all possible.


Margaret

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Interpol, the international police participated in an interview wih the Danish TV2, when they prepaired the four programs on childrens sex slavery.

A police chief from Interpol told a chocking story during the interview. He related drugs in generel and the distributors of drugs, the dealers locally world wide to the sex slavery of children, saying (not a qoute but my own notes):

With drugs the supplyer/the dealer and the user on the other side both have to buy new drugs to keep up the illigal buisness and to get the results of drugs.

With children into sex slavery and prostitution, any child can be offered to a rich client many times a day, per week, per month and per year. The child never makes a single dollar, but is kept imprisoned, but are kept alive with the nessesary food, water and drugs to keep them quiet and without the motivation to run away. When the child gets ill, or have become the victim of sexual infected deseaces, there will not be spend one single dollar on doctors or perscription medicin, not even antibiotica. The child will be sold with other children to a client abroad, typical an organisation, that distributes the child to a brothel or a private client, somewhere in the world. In the end, having physically and mentally disturbed a child from a normal childhood, the Human Traffickers have had next to no expences, only for food and housing, the individual child has been sold again and again for Dollars, Yen, Pounds, Francks, Crowns and Marks etc. etc. and the market increases by the day.

The Police Chief from Interpol finished the interview with the danish TV2 with a shocking announcement: It´s become "fashionable" to own sex slaves in some western invironments of low-life criminal character. But contrary to drugs, the clients are high rolers mostly and people with a very trustworthy front. Some are known from the media, some teach at universities, some are lawyers, doctors, politicians, actors, into womens fashion or pornography as a buisness. They can travel world wide on airplanes, if needed. Every income group or every social status are the clients locally. The high society of our modern day have got a new addiction, like canabis and pot were new addictions in the 1960´s, cocain was it twenty years ago, which let to crack coacain, extacy and now meth. amphetamin or Ice (as the Danish Police call it). Sex slavery of children is the new addiction.

 

[marval]

Hi Intet

Yes it is dreadful what some men will do, just to satisfy themselves.

People get caught just looking at child pornography on the internet, that is bad enough.

I would have no trouble going to the police if I suspected something funny was going on. Better safe than sorry.

How anyone can get that sort of pleasure with children I will never know.


Margaret

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Hi Intet

Yes it is dreadful what some men will do, just to satisfy themselves.

People get caught just looking at child pornography on the internet, that is bad enough.

I would have no trouble going to the police if I suspected something funny was going on. Better safe than sorry.

How anyone can get that sort of pleasure with children I will never know.


Margaret

Ms. Margaret :tiphat:

...and then I sit here in my safe apartment in the Northern Jutland, Denmark, with the window open listening to the birds outside and can hear children laughing near by and feel empty, somehow.

Some times, I remember myself on how lucky we are in my family. I have had two best of friends of wives, which they still are and three beautiful children, and I know in my heart how incredibly privileged, I am in my life.

 

[marval]

Hi Intet

I am glad that you feel priviledged with your family.

Children are a blessing and should taken care of. After all you know what they say
"look after your children, because they are the ones that choose your old people's home."


Margaret

 

[methodistgirl]

I just saw the guy's ugly mug on AOL before I came on this time.
He even looks like the devil. I know one thing God will take care of
this dude with a vengence.
judy tooley

 

[Muza]

Thailand is one of the worst places in that respect in general. It has more prostitution, violence, pedaphilism, drugs and poverty than any other place. And it has those things because it lives off of tourism.

And while capturing those pedophiles who go to Pattaya may sound like a good solution, I dont know how plausible it is. American government certainly cant do it because of the jurisdiction, and Thailand authorities will never do it because that is their source of income.

However, I dont understand - arent there internationally accepted rules on humanity or something like that? and then some countries get to bust other ones for breaking those rules? If it is no secret that Thailand is so messed up and is a source of so many crimes, why arent all countries doing anything?

 

[methodistgirl]

Just like this thread it's a hot topic right now.
judy tooley

 

[Andrew Roussak]

First off - Intet-at-tabe, thanks for keeping this thread up-to-date concerning Herr Fritzl.

The latest news I have read right now in SPIEGEL online -

the wife of him COULD REALLY HAVE BEEN UNAWARE OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED through all these years. Unbelievable as it may seem.

He had married Rosemarie as she was 17. She had not learn any profession and was more a slave than a wife for Fritzl - basing on what the relatives tell.

As the family gathered together for holidays, Rosemarie was always a target of rude jokes of her husband, but he has drilled her so that she was not allowed to open her mouth.

Every morning at 9p.m. Herr Fritzl was out - "to work in the cellar ". He was an engineer. His wife was not allowed to follow him there - regardless of how long he was absent.

The cellar was perfectly isolated from inside - the police has carried out a number of tests there , with NO SOUND AUDIBLE outside.

Elisabeth Fritzl ( a victim ) who is 42 years old now, looks like 60-65, with an ash-gray skin, and rotten teeth.

 

[Andrew Roussak]

...and then I sit here in my safe apartment in the Northern Jutland, Denmark, with the window open listening to the birds outside and can hear children laughing near by and feel empty, somehow.

The same goes for me, intet-at-tabe, as I read the updates concerning this case. All in one - cruelty, perverse carnality, stupidity , indifference - in Austria, Europe, now. Terrible.

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Thailand is one of the worst places in that respect in general. It has more prostitution, violence, pedaphilism, drugs and poverty than any other place. And it has those things because it lives off of tourism.

And while capturing those pedophiles who go to Pattaya may sound like a good solution, I dont know how plausible it is. American government certainly cant do it because of the jurisdiction, and Thailand authorities will never do it because that is their source of income.

However, I dont understand - arent there internationally accepted rules on humanity or something like that? and then some countries get to bust other ones for breaking those rules? If it is no secret that Thailand is so messed up and is a source of so many crimes, why arent all countries doing anything?

Maybe due to this case "the rich countries" will be more attentive to those who makes the trips to Pattaya - it could be a solution. They could track those who goes there , double-track those who goes there more than once and check out, what they are doing at home - in Germany, Austria, US , the way the special services would track the possible Al-Kaeda agents. This could work.
Actually the best way to battle a criminal business - is to make it unprofitable.

 

[intet_at_tabe]

Maybe due to this case "the rich countries" will be more attentive to those who makes the trips to Pattaya - it could be a solution. They could track those who goes there , double-track those who goes there more than once and check out, what they are doing at home - in Germany, Austria, US , the way the special services would track the possible Al-Kaeda agents. This could work.
Actually the best way to battle a criminal business - is to make it unprofitable.

Hi Andrew :tiphat:

I also read last night, what you entered here about his wife, being forced and threatend to silence by her husband Josef Fritzl. A family relative was on the Danish TV News last night, she told exactly that story. She also said, she was terrified of him. He even raped his own daughter consistingly, while the other children victims were in the room forced by threats to look at it - the rape.

Up-date on the monster Herr Josef Fritzl:

According to the news paper The Herald Sun: The Austrian police in Amstetten received two new complaints from two women yesterday, who told almost the same story as the woman, who got raped in 1967. Josef Fritzl broke the entry door in to their apartments and raped them, while treatening them to be killed, if they did not shut up.

However what´s more significant is that the police in Amstetten and the city of Linz have decided they will investigate 64 unsolved cases of missing people since 1967, mostly young single women and the unsolved killing of a teenage girl from a near by village in 1992.

The Who? might even be a serial kiiller as well, this monster Herr Josef Fritzl.

Kerstin Fritzl 19 years of age, the daughter of Josef Fritzl is still in a coma at the hospital, fighting for her life.

Thank you for the inputs all of you. I agree 100 with you, every country outside Thailand and every travel agency should stop turism for Thailand, to make it more difficult for the pedophiles to victimise new children at Pattaya. I wonder how many boys and girls, Josef Fritzl has hurt during his vacations to Thailand and Pattaya.

I still can´t figure out how he could just go for holidays far away to Thailand, without any whatsoever responsability or thoughts to the children in the basement. Someone else in Amstetten must have had knowledge of this evil man and his imprisoned family in the basement, no new food for 14 days and being left for the mercy of - survival?

But I guess they won´t. "It always only happen to the neighbours daughter", like an old proverb says.

 

[Muza]

That proverb is very true, and I hate that mindset in people. As long as it didnt happen to me, then everything is ok.

Although I do not wish this on Anybody, I am in a way happy that this case took place. And now more and more we are finding out that it wasnt only the neighbors daughter. One by one different women are coming forward and telling their stories about this monster. Maybe that will make people think, realize something and maybe this will make the government change the way it does business as well.