Criminal Punishment - Your Thoughts
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intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
Dear friend Corno Dolce :tiphat:
To use your own expression - It´s water over the dam, all forgotten.
intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
Master Krummhorn
(I never had you figured out to be a possible supporter of the ACLU :grin:, so Don´t you worry - be happy!!).
Thank you dear sir.
In the link to the article you provided for me about the reaction from the ACLU, the expression "The toughest Sheriff in America", equals the title of the TV program, I related to in a former post of mine having seen on Danish TV.
"The best man for the job", is an expression often used in the USA, and Sheriff Arpaio seems to be the best man for the job, in my book. Prison time should not be confused with a vacation on a hotel, or watching the Playboy Channel during nights, which he has shown - it´s not. His job is not to be popular among the prisoners and with the disciples of the Human Right´s.
However, popular he is among the citizens of his safe local neighbourhood, going on to be re-elected for the 5. time for 4 more years already having done 4 times 4 years, according to you Master Krummhorn, if I understand you correctly. He should have the OSCAR, if there was an OSCAR for providing safety for the local community, while running a prison for crooks who have offended fellow Americans on a large scale of crimes. If you do the crime, you have to do the time.
How many police forces or local prisons around the planet has the support from the local community? I know the entire Danish police force does not. He and his staff of guards have provided a system where everyone equally are under constant supervision/controle in chains, because he obviously is - The best man for the job.
If the ACLU is so concerned with his prison system and review it the way the do, all they have to do is to look at 47 million americans, who are houseless and living on the streets of every major city in USA, forgotten - erased from the American Dream and the Civil Rights of The American Constitution. They are much worse off than any of these prisoners in his prison. They get a shower every day, three meals per day, physical excerzise and they work every day. Work, which to many Americans, who has never offended the laws of your country - is but a dream.
"They live in tents" the ACLU claims. So what? American soldiers live in tents, this is not against the Human Right´s.
In my book (as a foreignor from Demark), whether one is a Democrat or a Republican in the USA, do not fight this politically and make it into a hockwash. They should all stand up from their chairs and give applause for Mr. Arpaio for not just talking about changing the prison system, like they on the Hill in D.C. have talked, talked and then talked some more for decades about social reforms in the USA, but never actually done anything to achieve it. They should give him the economical resources to expand his ideas on prison time in Arizona first, and then the USA - end of story.
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intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
CT64 :tiphat::clap::banana::trp::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Even if some of the Danish Vikings these days use a cain, you may fart on that, to stay with your own language from another thread!!:grin::grin::grin::grin:
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intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
Up-date on the monster of sexual abuse, rape and false imprissonment Herr Josef Fritzl from the city of Amstetten, Austria:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,550483,00.html
The police in Amstetten will most likely procecute Herr Josef Fritzl on three accusations:
1. False imprissonment
2. Rape
3. Pedophilism
In Austria according to the penal code of the Austrian Justice Department these three accusations, will - if he is convicted - bring him at the most 15 years imprissonment, to which he will serve 8-10 years at the most.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,550483,00.html
The police in Amstetten will most likely procecute Herr Josef Fritzl on three accusations:
1. False imprissonment
2. Rape
3. Pedophilism
In Austria according to the penal code of the Austrian Justice Department these three accusations, will - if he is convicted - bring him at the most 15 years imprissonment, to which he will serve 8-10 years at the most.
intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
Muza dear :tiphat:Thank you for your answer.
As I´ve already stated, I do not disagree with you. What´s wrong with the European prison system and the Courts in Europe and Denmark are, they often almost apologize on behalf of the perpretator. Because children are often left without any rights at all.
Just think of the Human Trafficking, which has become a world wide problem for any country in the West as in the East to Africa and the Northern Finland since the 1990´s, which have but one issue for the traffickers and the people, who has the money to put it in motion. To make as much money as possible creating new young women and children to be sexual victims in brothels, for videos/DVD´s of pornography, sexual abuse as private sex slaves at home and shown on webcams. throughout the world on the internet possibly beaten.
In my own country Denmark, a male pedagog in the socalled Beder-case last year being convicted and sentenced for 2 1/2 years after having had oral sex and other kinds of sexual abuse with 24 children from a kindergarden, being sent to a new specially built prison for pedophiles outside the range of ordinary prisoners, of course payed for by the Danish taxpayers - is rediculous. 2 1/2 years is the ordinary conviction and sentence for robbing a shop without a weapon.
Knowing that these children will react differently. Some will grow up with nightmares, anxiety attacks, fear of being touched at all, the emotion of quilt, not wanting to have close relations with anyone, being afraid of having sex, wishing to commit suicide attempts, turning into alcohol and drugs abuse, never to be able to achieve an education or having a job etc. etc. etc.
A life which should have had possibilities, but ended by a jerk with none whatsoever respect of children, the very same children he was supposed to take care of as an educated pedagog so they could all evolve to be ordinary peaceful responsable citizens.
This Danish freak should have been sentenced for life, with no opportunity of parole.
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Andrew Roussak
New member
Pretty mild, I would say. The guy deserves the gallows - three times.
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Andrew Roussak
New member
Muza,
I actually quite agree with your views. Such guys can not be corrected, so a life imprisonment is an obvious solution.
Concerning death penalty - well , rather spontaneously and emotionally I would also say - in some cases this would be an appropriate measure , like in case of Herr Fritzl, or those who were involved in 9.11., etc. But, I believe that the death penalties are restricted in EU not because the goverments have a sympathy for criminals. It is more about the society itself - EU wants to build up a society based on all-common human values, and death penalty is not compatible with it. I think generally this approach works pretty good.
But, of course, such mild penalties ( as Intet-at-tabe means, Herr Fritzl may get only 15 yrs....) are a crying injustice too. I just don't want to believe it they may let him go that easily. Let's look what will happen in this case.
marval
New member
The Austrian authorities are trying to get the law changed, so that he never gets out.
Also it was reported in today's newspaper, that his wife took food down to the cellar, and that food was ordered in the poor daughter's name. So now tell us Mrs Fritzl that you didn't know what was going on.
In the hospital they have made a special dark place, so that the released children will feel at home, until they get used to proper daylight.
Margaret
Also it was reported in today's newspaper, that his wife took food down to the cellar, and that food was ordered in the poor daughter's name. So now tell us Mrs Fritzl that you didn't know what was going on.
In the hospital they have made a special dark place, so that the released children will feel at home, until they get used to proper daylight.
Margaret
intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
Hi Andrew :tiphat:
I agree with you in your estiments of the EU laws. We have decided years ago in the beginning of the 1970´s:
1) We won´t tolerate torture of human beings, political prisoners or any other prisoner - one of the reason we won´t accept Turkey as a new member of the EU.
2) We won´t accept nations, who do not approve of and keep the rules of the Human Rights.
3) We won´t accept countries, who perform the death penalty, because we basicly believe it´s a Middle Aged behaviour, which do not belong in a modern democratical country.
So of course, we won´t and can´t change the rules and laws within the EU, that we have all worked for for so many years, because of a depraved perverted case like this one - however unfortunate for the victims of the monster Herr Josef Fritzl, described buy the Austrian police as a very dominating character with no integrity, no etics, no morals and no remorse to what he has done.
But 15 years imprissonment, probably reduced to between 8-10 for good behaviour (while in prison) is rediculous, and it certainly does not scare anyone else for doing the same crime as Herr Josef Fritzl. We have to wait and see.
He did his perverted controle-freak hidden behaviour of and victimising his entire family for 24 years without being disclosed. Had it not been for one of the children in the basement, who had to be rushed to hospital with respiratory problems, then who knows, if we would ever have become vitnesses to the current monster from Amstetten, Austria - Herr Josef Fritzl?
I agree with you in your estiments of the EU laws. We have decided years ago in the beginning of the 1970´s:
1) We won´t tolerate torture of human beings, political prisoners or any other prisoner - one of the reason we won´t accept Turkey as a new member of the EU.
2) We won´t accept nations, who do not approve of and keep the rules of the Human Rights.
3) We won´t accept countries, who perform the death penalty, because we basicly believe it´s a Middle Aged behaviour, which do not belong in a modern democratical country.
So of course, we won´t and can´t change the rules and laws within the EU, that we have all worked for for so many years, because of a depraved perverted case like this one - however unfortunate for the victims of the monster Herr Josef Fritzl, described buy the Austrian police as a very dominating character with no integrity, no etics, no morals and no remorse to what he has done.
But 15 years imprissonment, probably reduced to between 8-10 for good behaviour (while in prison) is rediculous, and it certainly does not scare anyone else for doing the same crime as Herr Josef Fritzl. We have to wait and see.
He did his perverted controle-freak hidden behaviour of and victimising his entire family for 24 years without being disclosed. Had it not been for one of the children in the basement, who had to be rushed to hospital with respiratory problems, then who knows, if we would ever have become vitnesses to the current monster from Amstetten, Austria - Herr Josef Fritzl?
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Muza
New member
Thanks Guys, particularly Andrew and Intet for your responses
Yep, looks like we all agree on the most important thing - the sentences are ridiculously light and not only dont fit the crime, but dont fit anything! 2.5 years for that 'pedagogue' is nothing short of injust, a mockery of victimized children, and totally useless. And Fritzl, who thretened his family of poisoning them with gas if anything should happen to him, should be killed with a lethal injection himself - for the sake of irony!!!
I see Europe's reasoning on death penalty, but it certainly seems like Europe is taking it way way to far. First - lets be humane and not kill them, now - give ridiculous sentences. I dont know what the reasoning for lighter sentences is. Do you guys know?
Anyhow, back to the death penalty. I see the point. But many of you have also said - death penalty is not good not for the sole reasons of being inhumane, but for reasons of being too easy - an easy way out for criminals who committed horrible crimes. Many of you have said - let them be locked up till the rest of their lives so that they know, so that they suffer.
Philosophically speaking, and playing devils advocate a little bit - isnt that a more inhumane thing to do?
P.S. I am certainly not advocating for all criminals to be killed, but some - with pleasure!
Yep, looks like we all agree on the most important thing - the sentences are ridiculously light and not only dont fit the crime, but dont fit anything! 2.5 years for that 'pedagogue' is nothing short of injust, a mockery of victimized children, and totally useless. And Fritzl, who thretened his family of poisoning them with gas if anything should happen to him, should be killed with a lethal injection himself - for the sake of irony!!!
I see Europe's reasoning on death penalty, but it certainly seems like Europe is taking it way way to far. First - lets be humane and not kill them, now - give ridiculous sentences. I dont know what the reasoning for lighter sentences is. Do you guys know?
Anyhow, back to the death penalty. I see the point. But many of you have also said - death penalty is not good not for the sole reasons of being inhumane, but for reasons of being too easy - an easy way out for criminals who committed horrible crimes. Many of you have said - let them be locked up till the rest of their lives so that they know, so that they suffer.
Philosophically speaking, and playing devils advocate a little bit - isnt that a more inhumane thing to do?
P.S. I am certainly not advocating for all criminals to be killed, but some - with pleasure!
methodistgirl
New member
I totaly agree with this one. I would do like the indians did if someone
broke the law. That ment torture and death.
judy tooley
broke the law. That ment torture and death.
judy tooley
intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
Thanks Guys, particularly Andrew and Intet for your responses
Yep, looks like we all agree on the most important thing - the sentences are ridiculously light and not only dont fit the crime, but dont fit anything! 2.5 years for that 'pedagogue' is nothing short of injust, a mockery of victimized children, and totally useless. And Fritzl, who thretened his family of poisoning them with gas if anything should happen to him, should be killed with a lethal injection himself - for the sake of irony!!!
I see Europe's reasoning on death penalty, but it certainly seems like Europe is taking it way way to far. First - lets be humane and not kill them, now - give ridiculous sentences. I dont know what the reasoning for lighter sentences is. Do you guys know?
Anyhow, back to the death penalty. I see the point. But many of you have also said - death penalty is not good not for the sole reasons of being inhumane, but for reasons of being too easy - an easy way out for criminals who committed horrible crimes. Many of you have said - let them be locked up till the rest of their lives so that they know, so that they suffer.
Philosophically speaking, and playing devils advocate a little bit - isnt that a more inhumane thing to do?
P.S. I am certainly not advocating for all criminals to be killed, but some - with pleasure!
Muza dear :tiphat:
Thank You, I say. Now this could look as if I got my head in another jam here, towards your most logical question above. But not really.
Both as a European, and I personally believe in The Human Rights, I have supported these Human Rights for all people, since I was seventeen at the same time with another hat on favourising Mr. Arpaio in Arizona on his chain-gang system for prisoners and yet another hat thirdly to wish for a monster to suffer for the rest of his life isolated from the world. with minutes on end to think.
I am with you Muza dear. I understand your question.
Well, it´s easy. As a human being, I am only me with my not typical Danish or European opinions. I have seen to much, sorry the expression, crap and manipulation among the dignatars of the EU center, down Brussels.
As a European, I support the mentioned rules for the EU and The Human Rights. Did you know Denmark is still no member of the common Euro coin?
As a poster here at the MIMF, reminding myself that US Justice is very different from Danish or European Justice, not nessesarely worse or better, but definitely different. I look at your Constitution for instance and on your Justice Department. I consider how good american Presidents and each their Governments are to keep the same laws and rules as every other American are demanded to do. I look at your historicly evolvement over let´s say 400 years, on more complexed historical knowledge known from other former US prisons. I look to your all the time increasing crime rate, and that more Americans find it reasonable to own a private gun. And so on and so forth. Not to mention your American culture, your incredibly beautiful country and millions of people who show geat hospitability and are this worlds best marketing people. I look at your more fundamentalistic way of Christianity than I was brought up with, your social relations among Americans. I try to understand, accept and respect and implement your typical American way of thinking - born in the best country in the world - however with an increasing group of Americans with no chance at all, no social accept from the ordinary hard working America. I have always loved your country like most Europeans do, but I also fear the USA like most Europeans are beginning to.
I know your political system rather well within D.C. again very diferent to Denmark, but not that much to the EU. Both political centres where huge important discissions are made - a true center of constant energy always moving ahead.
But with child abusers pedophiles who only go for children. Absolutely. IMHO they have to suffer long years of isolation, having really really good time to think, nothing else. Except to be studied by psychiatrist and other relavent personal, who now controle him. Excactly the kind of isolation Herr Josef Fritzl - brought upon his own family, threatend to be gassed, raped and controled on very few square metres for at least 24 years - in desperation at first, but later in apathy disillutioned accepting, and all the time frightend to their bones.
Can you imagine his own daughter having to watch her own children, one died and were burned, grow up in a basement, with no sunshine, no natural light, none whatsoever opportunity to have the life of a child, as we know it. To play and laugh, play with dolls or go to the sandbox. To see nature as we know it, to look at the swans in the lake to have friends over for tea in the cups of dolls. To have a birthday with cake and presents and singing with school friends, to meet her first boyfriend, to be the cheerleader etc.etc.
You may call me cruel, but we´re talking of children imprissoned for 24 years with no one in the neighbourhood or in the world outside to look for them, they could only watch on TV or listen to the radio, what the rest of us take for natural, with Herr Josef Fritzl´s own wife knowing about it, and yet.........
Death is too easy in this kind of inhuman behaviour, perhaps because I still can´t understand or accept within me, that another man can perform what he did, it´s beyond my believe of human behaviour.
Respectfully,
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Muza
New member
Oh I absolutely agree - i think he should suffer, suffer, and then suffer some more. But then dont tell me (I dont mean you dont tell me, but just in general), that you are excluding death penalty because it is too harsh and not up to human standards.
You see my point right?
Moving on - I came along quite an umm..., interesting so to speak, article which posed a question - Why this crime, why in Austria? Answer given - World War II.
I have certain feelings about that answer, but I would really love to hear your guys thoughts on that.
You see my point right?
Moving on - I came along quite an umm..., interesting so to speak, article which posed a question - Why this crime, why in Austria? Answer given - World War II.
I have certain feelings about that answer, but I would really love to hear your guys thoughts on that.
intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
Muza dear :tiphat:
I do see your point from the eye of the beholder from where you sit. I never said the death penalty was to harsh, in fact IMHO to easy a way out, or against human standards anywhere world wide in the world we are all citizens in.
I only said the death penalty is not up to the standards of the international approved of Human Rights of principles for all free men, to which I believe in and support.
Sorry Muza dear, I can´t get any closer to it.
Muza
New member
No no, I heard you Thats why I was trying to note in the parenthesis that my comment was not directed at you personally, it was directed at that rule in general.
By saying "dont tell me...." I wasnt talking directly to you, but rather to the internationally approved standards of human rights.
Anyhow, moving on - I would love to hear your insights about that WWII comment. What do you think about that?
Thats why I was trying to note in the parenthesis that my comment was not directed at you personally, it was directed at that rule in general. By saying "dont tell me...." I wasnt talking directly to you, but rather to the internationally approved standards of human rights.
Anyhow, moving on - I would love to hear your insights about that WWII comment. What do you think about that?
I see lots of discussion on how inhumane the death penalty is and how it "violates" human rights ... but how about the human rights of the victims?
The victims who got murdered had no trial, had no jail time; they were handed (mostly without even knowing) the "death penalty" and were executed without any consideration to any "approved standards" of human rights. Sounds like the criminals are being allowed to live their lives out until natural death when the victims didn't have the choice.
In my perception, the laws are doing more these days to protect the criminals than they are doing to protect the innocent. We need stiffer penalties, and those penalties need to be carried out within days ... not months or years or decades afterward.
Keeping that 74 year old Austrian geezer alive is doing him a favor ... doesn't have to worry not about continued health care, having a place to live, free meals, and other amenities lots of poor people do without. Keeping him locked up in a cellar without outside contact isn't the answer either ... he will not "learn" from his mistakes ... people like that cannot be rehabilitated, and it's a waste of our time to even try.
I best clam up before I get a nasty-gram from my boss here ... :nut:
(Disclaimer: the thoughts above are my own and do not reflect the opinions of this forum community, its staff members or the site owner.) :grin:
The victims who got murdered had no trial, had no jail time; they were handed (mostly without even knowing) the "death penalty" and were executed without any consideration to any "approved standards" of human rights. Sounds like the criminals are being allowed to live their lives out until natural death when the victims didn't have the choice.
In my perception, the laws are doing more these days to protect the criminals than they are doing to protect the innocent. We need stiffer penalties, and those penalties need to be carried out within days ... not months or years or decades afterward.
Keeping that 74 year old Austrian geezer alive is doing him a favor ... doesn't have to worry not about continued health care, having a place to live, free meals, and other amenities lots of poor people do without. Keeping him locked up in a cellar without outside contact isn't the answer either ... he will not "learn" from his mistakes ... people like that cannot be rehabilitated, and it's a waste of our time to even try.
I best clam up before I get a nasty-gram from my boss here ... :nut:
(Disclaimer: the thoughts above are my own and do not reflect the opinions of this forum community, its staff members or the site owner.) :grin:
intet_at_tabe
Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret.)
Up-date on the dying 19 year old Miss Kerstin Fritzl, one of the daughters of the monster Herr Josef Fritzl, from the intensive care unit at the hospital, where she has been for severel days.
According to a spokesman from the hospital yesterday afternoon at 5:45 PM:
"The chances for Miss Kerstin Fritzl to survive are very poor. She is in a coma, but her inner organs are so damaged because of the many years of imprissonment, now with the total failure of the inner organs to function at all her condition is critical and chances for survival are next to none".
According to the Austrian police:
"If Miss Kerstin Fritzl dies, the procecution will most definitely procecute her father Herr Josef Fritzl on murder. He is already accused of man slaughter on the child of his and Miss Kerstin Fritzl, the child who died shortly after birth".
According to a spokesman from the hospital yesterday afternoon at 5:45 PM:
"The chances for Miss Kerstin Fritzl to survive are very poor. She is in a coma, but her inner organs are so damaged because of the many years of imprissonment, now with the total failure of the inner organs to function at all her condition is critical and chances for survival are next to none".
According to the Austrian police:
"If Miss Kerstin Fritzl dies, the procecution will most definitely procecute her father Herr Josef Fritzl on murder. He is already accused of man slaughter on the child of his and Miss Kerstin Fritzl, the child who died shortly after birth".