feeling about contemporary classical music?
- Thread starter nikolas
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Dirigent
New member
Bingo! You got my argument in one!! Same throw of the dice - smart lawyer, tricky language skills, unreasonable verdict!
Same expositionary skills as those required to argue noise is music when it isn't! Fortunately nearly a 1000 years of learned classical music didn't need to have to be 'debated' to decide whether or not it was music as opposed to, say, a circular saw.
some guy
New member
You, on the other hand, have completely missed the gist of my point.
You're the one who's been arguing, and you've have been arguing that noise and music are exclusive categories. Doesn't make them so.
And I, just by the way, have the same thousand years of learned classical music listening skills as you do.* And I have come to different conclusions than yours. That's the real kicker, isn't it, that anyone could possibly come to different conclusions than you. Or, not that they can (of course they can), but that they would have the temerity to insist that their conclusions are just as valid as yours. That's what you really find troublesome, isn't it?
*And I continue to listen to and enjoy plainchant and madrigals and Monteverdi and Vivaldi and Bach and Haydn and Gluck and Mozart and Beethoven and Berlioz and Schumann and Saint-Saens and Dvorak and Tchaikovsky and Debussy and Ravel and a host of others, both before and after the turn of the previous century.
You're the one who's been arguing, and you've have been arguing that noise and music are exclusive categories. Doesn't make them so.
And I, just by the way, have the same thousand years of learned classical music listening skills as you do.* And I have come to different conclusions than yours. That's the real kicker, isn't it, that anyone could possibly come to different conclusions than you. Or, not that they can (of course they can), but that they would have the temerity to insist that their conclusions are just as valid as yours. That's what you really find troublesome, isn't it?
*And I continue to listen to and enjoy plainchant and madrigals and Monteverdi and Vivaldi and Bach and Haydn and Gluck and Mozart and Beethoven and Berlioz and Schumann and Saint-Saens and Dvorak and Tchaikovsky and Debussy and Ravel and a host of others, both before and after the turn of the previous century.
Dirigent
New member
No, the issue is that it's noise salad not music. To bring any other rhetoric into it is mere obfuscation. I'll bet you've got a tricky lawyer who can convince people that your noise is music, but that doesn't make it so. Fortunately, Mozart et al didn't need tricky lawyers to try and convince audiences that theirs was music and not sound effects or noise. But then, they didn't have circular saws or helicopters back then.
Yes, you can certainly hear tones in certain noises. But tones, by themselves, do not music make. I'm surprised you haven't figured that out with your interest in the composers from the ancient world you say you listen to. And it's also certain that music, as I understand it, reached a tipping point with nowhere to go. The answer isn't noise, but there are some wonderful new composers around like Brett Deans, just to name one, who write very approachable contemporary music. He's a conservatory graduate and virtuosic musician and his music reflects that rigour and discipline.
I'll continue to listen to contemporary orchestral music, or Xenakis' "Rebonds", for example, because it is more than just tonal salad or noise salad and certainly not the industrial variety of noise some tiny percentage of the population deems is music. Apart from the obvious academic musical discipline involved, there is a generally accepted consensus in this world about what words mean, what a film is, what a poem is and what constitutes music. I go along with all of that because nothing has come along to convince me I'm wrong. Like yourself, I enjoy music from plainchant up to the present day. I draw the line at noise because there is such an abundance of non-noise I just don't have the time. And, frankly, I don't need to align myself with some tiny, misunderstood but pretentious clique of avant gardists because I want to identify with them and feel important or superior to the rabble who understand Bach. I don't say this is you, but I sure identify these kinds of motivations in some cultural avant-garde cliques, eg. Andy Warhole, the 'beat' generation etc. Ephemera 101.
And I certainly wouldn't reply upon some postmodern re-evaluation of a definition of music so that I could wedge my preferences into that tiny apperture.
You like it. Good for you, but don't expect us to fall into line and cheer along with you.
Yes, you can certainly hear tones in certain noises. But tones, by themselves, do not music make. I'm surprised you haven't figured that out with your interest in the composers from the ancient world you say you listen to. And it's also certain that music, as I understand it, reached a tipping point with nowhere to go. The answer isn't noise, but there are some wonderful new composers around like Brett Deans, just to name one, who write very approachable contemporary music. He's a conservatory graduate and virtuosic musician and his music reflects that rigour and discipline.
I'll continue to listen to contemporary orchestral music, or Xenakis' "Rebonds", for example, because it is more than just tonal salad or noise salad and certainly not the industrial variety of noise some tiny percentage of the population deems is music. Apart from the obvious academic musical discipline involved, there is a generally accepted consensus in this world about what words mean, what a film is, what a poem is and what constitutes music. I go along with all of that because nothing has come along to convince me I'm wrong. Like yourself, I enjoy music from plainchant up to the present day. I draw the line at noise because there is such an abundance of non-noise I just don't have the time. And, frankly, I don't need to align myself with some tiny, misunderstood but pretentious clique of avant gardists because I want to identify with them and feel important or superior to the rabble who understand Bach. I don't say this is you, but I sure identify these kinds of motivations in some cultural avant-garde cliques, eg. Andy Warhole, the 'beat' generation etc. Ephemera 101.
And I certainly wouldn't reply upon some postmodern re-evaluation of a definition of music so that I could wedge my preferences into that tiny apperture.
You like it. Good for you, but don't expect us to fall into line and cheer along with you.
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some guy
New member
Like I said. Your assertions must be correct, because they're yours.
Wow, you really do like making stuff* up, don't you?
I mean, really really really a lot.
Thanks for the cheery little dismissal, D. Word in your ear, I do not, nor have I ever expected anyone to fall in line and cheer along with me. That's more along the lines of what you want and expect, I fear.
What I want (but still, note, I don't expect it!) is for people to be able to discuss things from a basis of knowledge and understanding. Yeah, like that's ever gonna happen.
*euphemism
Dirigent
New member
All out of arguments, then? I thought so. "Making stuff up" is a process derived from reading, researching, processing, thinking, analyzing, intuition etc. So, yes, that's how I 'make stuff up'. Not like recording the sound of noise interference and calling it music, though, aye?
Oh, and did I mention that noise compared to real music is as a cave is to a baroque castle architecturally. Yep, people live in them alright - but one is the product of sophistication, logic, skill, imagination and creativity - the other of availability and sheer necessity. So, I'm more than happy with the term 'sound designers' for your kind of 'music' - that or "Foley Artist". They're both valid - and there is work around in Hollywood for Foley artists and sound designers, and they make good money.
However, don't confuse this with real music because you insult and devalue thousands of skilled musicians and composers who work long and hard, year after year, in a conservatory or university music faculty (not engineering!) to craft their art, not to mention countless hours of practice and self-sacrifice. It is them you devalue, not me. What would I know, though? I make stuff up....
Whereas, you wear a hair shirt!
Oh, and did I mention that noise compared to real music is as a cave is to a baroque castle architecturally. Yep, people live in them alright - but one is the product of sophistication, logic, skill, imagination and creativity - the other of availability and sheer necessity. So, I'm more than happy with the term 'sound designers' for your kind of 'music' - that or "Foley Artist". They're both valid - and there is work around in Hollywood for Foley artists and sound designers, and they make good money.
However, don't confuse this with real music because you insult and devalue thousands of skilled musicians and composers who work long and hard, year after year, in a conservatory or university music faculty (not engineering!) to craft their art, not to mention countless hours of practice and self-sacrifice. It is them you devalue, not me. What would I know, though? I make stuff up....
Whereas, you wear a hair shirt!
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Corno Dolce
Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
I used to know some who graduated with a Masters degree in composition and they composed "noise" - Their great guiding lights were Cage, Crumb, and other "pioneers" of "sonic fuzz" - they found gainful employment - in McJobs and service industries - some of the most resentful and pissed-off buggahs you could ever meet...
some guy
New member
Well gentlemen, you make me feel very much like Lucy near the end of The Last Battle, wanting to help the dwarfs but unable to.
I think it's time for me to take Eustace's advice, "Let 'em alone."
After all, even Aslan can only offer them a way out; he can't make them take it.
Enjoy your stable, guys.
[N.B. for anyone who hasn't read Lewis's book; this scene is variant of Plato's cave.]
I think it's time for me to take Eustace's advice, "Let 'em alone."
After all, even Aslan can only offer them a way out; he can't make them take it.
Enjoy your stable, guys.
[N.B. for anyone who hasn't read Lewis's book; this scene is variant of Plato's cave.]
JHC
Chief assistant to the assistant chief
I am just disappointed that no one has mentioned the diagram that I posted (#78) in particular you John who I thought would have passed comment
some guy
New member
Well, I woulda done, JHC, but it would only have been to say that I find all that type of thing distracting.
I remember how disappointed I was to find out that Black Angels had something to do with the Vietnam War and how relieved I was to find that that connection was made by Crumb late in the process of writing the piece.
But that's just me. I just prefer to have as little between me and the sounds as is possible. (And I've always been that way. When I was first starting out, I faithfully read all the program notes and as many books as I could find. After some frustrating experiences trying to match what I read with what I was hearing, I just dispensed with the words and listened to the music.)
There! Now you know a tiny bit more about me and absolutely nothing more about Black Angels!!
I remember how disappointed I was to find out that Black Angels had something to do with the Vietnam War and how relieved I was to find that that connection was made by Crumb late in the process of writing the piece.
But that's just me. I just prefer to have as little between me and the sounds as is possible. (And I've always been that way. When I was first starting out, I faithfully read all the program notes and as many books as I could find. After some frustrating experiences trying to match what I read with what I was hearing, I just dispensed with the words and listened to the music.)
There! Now you know a tiny bit more about me and absolutely nothing more about Black Angels!!
JHC
Chief assistant to the assistant chief
Well I agree that the music is more important than the reason but what I meant was the construction of the piece, and I do know a bit more about Black Angels now whether or not it has any effect on my assessment of the work is another matter altogether.