feeling about contemporary classical music?

[JHC]

An interesting video if pretty basic in theorybut then it was an introduction. The references to Bartok, Stravinsky andSchoenberg were relevant even to day but the original film was 1957 things havebecome much more outrageous it will be interesting to see what others make ofit. The section regarding mixed rhythmsI found easy to except but then if you are a jazz fan these will be old hat toyou.

 

[JHC]

An interesting video if pretty basic in theorybut then it was an introduction. The references to Bartok, Stravinsky andSchoenberg were relevant even to day but the original film was 1957 things havebecome much more outrageous it will be interesting to see what others make ofit. The section regarding mixed rhythmsI found easy to accept but then if you are a jazz fan these will be old hat to you.

 

[some guy]

Bartok, Stravinsky, and Schoenberg--already ancient music by 1957. It'd be nice to see the word "outrageous" disappear from such conversations, as well. Music. It's so goddam hard to listen to and enjoy. I'm surprised anyone actually succeeds in doing it!

 

[JHC]

Music. It's so goddam hard to listen to and enjoy. I'm surprised anyone actually succeeds in doing it!

Well not many are following to days music so the rest of us must have got it wrong

 

[Corno Dolce]

Well not many are following to days music so the rest of us must have got it wrong

Is that so, Commisar Colin? Please explain, 'cause eager ears are itching to know........

 

[JHC]

The number of concert goers that attend a concert of Avant garde music is very low compared to those that attend a normal concert this means that we do not understand and have got it wrong according to the AG followers.
I hope that is a bit more lucid Вы понимаете :grin:

 

[Corno Dolce]

The number of concert goers that attend a concert of Avant garde music is very low compared to those that attend a normal concert this means that we do not understand and have got it wrong according to the AG followers.
I hope that is a bit more lucid Вы понимаете :grin:

Да - я понимаю:lol:

 

[Dirigent]

But this isn't why I posted the Leonard Bernstein lecture, some guy (I was looking at your last post and it didn't "Quote" in my reply). It was an eloquent essay from Bernstein on the connections between all styles of music - and an excellent departure point, IMO, for more contemporary musical understanding. It certainly got me thinking about the whole issue of the organic nature of music and the link wasn't to discuss per se whether or not contemporary music is accessible or well-liked - I think Bernstein made his own special case for that by assuming everybody would have learned more from his lecture. He was, indeed, a polymath.

Also, I think it a specious argument to suggest that because something isn't well attended, i.e. concert or art gallery, that it isn't any good. If we are going to crunch numbers and look at popularity through that prism we might as well say that the Hitler rallies in Nuremburg were good because, well, look how well attended they were!! No, it is more often the case that something of value will be a niche until it gains wider acceptance - if not, it will disappear into oblivion and we'll know that it was ultimately of little value. So, 'bums on seats' (Elvis concerts, for example) is hardly a ringing endorsement of musical or cultural worth, merely that so and so numbers of people "like it". Decisions of value are another discussion altogether, IMHO.

 

[JHC]

I don’t know why you bring the Nuremburg Rallies into it? at the time Germany was in a mess and any way out must have seemed ok to the masses they were not to know what lay in store, but back to music, Harmonics and enharmonic are one of the basics of music and those that are pleasing to the Ear will be accepted, also musical form (sonata as an example) that is recognisable is important as is anticipation and the ability to remember a theme/melody, in today’s music these seem in short supply at least to my ears and I have tried and still do on occasions to give it another go.
Unless you have rules and in general keep to them all you finish up with is chaos.
please note I am not applying this to all of today,s music.

 

[Corno Dolce]

The composer Georgy Sviridov understood later in life that music that sings to the soul will always attract listeners. Music that does not sing to the soul will remain in ignominy and obloquoy. I am in agreement with Dirigent in re to Bernstein.

 

[Corno Dolce]

The composer Georgy Sviridov understood later in life that music that sings to the soul will always attract listeners. Music that does not sing to the soul will remain in ignominy and obloquoy. I am in agreement with Dirigent in re to Bernstein. Would our member some guy be dismissive of Bernsteins research?

 

[some guy]

Dirigent of course is correct about the numbers. The numbers of attendees of "normal" classical concerts is also miniscule compared to that for pop and rock concerts.

New music is of course less well known--it's not been around for very long. It's new. So much easier for producers to fill halls with familiar stuff, i.e., stuff that's been around a long time. (The exceptions are well known and needn't be rehashed here, I don't think. I mean, you're welcome to, whoever you are. I'm not going to do it, that's all.)

Wasn't always like that. Audiences in Haydn's time went to concerts in order to hear new music.

JHC is right about being wrong. Though he's being sarcastic, he's still correct that he's wrong. (At least wrong in labelling non-avant garde concerts as "normal" and non-normal musics as "outrageous."

Corno Dolce, as per usual, is simply wrong.:grin: Corno has certain preferences and has elevated those preferences (sometimes unconsciously, sometimes ostentatiously) to eternal truths. They are nothing of the sort.

Though I must say, that I don't really have any quarrel with the words "music that sings to the soul." I only have trouble if it is argued that things like electroacoustic music or noise or live electronics do not sing to souls. They certainly sing to mine. I understand that they do not sing to Corno's soul, and I'm fine with that (though since I like Corno, I want him to like the same things I like--that's just part of being a fellow human). I'm not fine when the things that don't sing to Corno's soul are characterized as ignominious and full of obloquoy.

Same goes for JHC's "pleasing to the ear" and "recognisable." These are not immutable and eternal truths. They are simply references to certain listeners. "The ear" does not exist. There are many ears, and each pair is hooked up to a different brain with different experiences and different needs. To privilege certain ears over others is distasteful at the very least.

 

[JHC]

Every time I cast my line in I get a bite :grin:

 

[Dirigent]

Someguy, I think the 'new music' of the time of Haydn was really only discreetly new. That is, it was always cast in the same idiom and musical language and that discreet changes like formal elements, more 'daring' harmonics and the like are what characterized it, essentially, as "new". Listening to Haydn's complete oeuvre today we are struck by it's essential 'sameness' - i.e. representative of high Viennese classicism. So, "new" was "more music" rather than 'avant garde' in the strict sense. Beethoven had problems because his very late works were, in fact, considered 'avant garde' and audiences has relegated him to a museum in his own lifetime because of this. Also, musicians complained it was unplayable. Did you know that there was a salon in Vienna in Beethoven's day, run by Sonnleithner, which focussed attention on "ancient music" - i.e. from 17th and 18th century: performance practice etc. There was a loyal, but small, audience for this and I've learned this only recently through research. Very interesting!

 

[Corno Dolce]

Some Guy,

I accept the bone of contention you have with somethings that I freely share - Its only natural that there are differences and I perceive that you are honest in your devotion to "contemporary music", something which I respect. I used ignominy and obloquoy to describe what can be perceived as the general position of much "contemporary music" that is shunned by people for whatever reason.

I invite you to do some readings in re to Sviridov - He also composed music that is shunned for whatever reason but he then came to understand that he needed to compose music to which people could "resonate" with, music that was not abstract, music that had a symbiosis with folk music, and music that accompanied the writings of the great writers of Russia i.e. Pushkin, Blok, Esenin and others.

So, we may never see eye to eye as to contemporary music. When I lived in the "Peoples Demokratik Republik of Amerika" I listened to quite alot of contemporary music, some of it surprised me in ways I never thought. But I found myself wanting for music that expressed the Infinite, not the temporal, even though some contemporary music had a "gravity", but of a sort that is hard to define - for me at least. And now I live in a country that is caught up in a Maelstrom, where ideas are born, purified, forged and tested - much is falling away. Yes, there is a contemporary scene here too but it's "purveyors and consumers" are in it solely for the "ride" it gives them.

 

[JHC]

@Dirigent. You make some very good points and it is a welcome change to have a serious debate on classical music, I must admit that I like a lot of work by John Adams, Steve Reich and others perhaps because they do not wander too far from a familiar path. Regarding the later music of LvB it was probably stretching the competence of the musicians as you say and a lack of rehearsal's that gave him bad press thank goodness we still have some guy to give us a nudge now and again!! even if he is totally wrong on most things he does at least try :grin::grin:

 

[JHC]

Some Guy,



I invite you to do some readings in re to Sviridov - He also composed music that is shunned for whatever reason but he then came to understand that he needed to compose music to which people could "resonate" with, music that was not abstract, music that had a symbiosis with folk music

Please forgive me for butting in Comrade but the same type of thing happened to Arvo Part.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Commisar Colin,

Please feel free to butting in - You are most welcome at anytime. Yes, Arvo Part also came around to what is in consonance with peoples souls...Seriously, some guy feels that I can be ostentatious - Yes, that I can be and I appreciate that he shared his thought about it. Bottom line: I can listen to contemporary music but I cannot abide by it because it represents that which is temporal imnsho........

 

[some guy]

Well, there you have it, folks. Worth in music is determined by how closely a piece sounds like stuff that people are already used to, already like, are already comfortable with. Anything that makes people uncomfortable, that gives them anything new, that invites them to expand their horizons, is bad.

And, of course, "people" really means "people like Corno and JHC." You know, normal people. The only ones with souls.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Some Guy,

Now you're being nonsensical - I have never and will never say that you are without a soul nor will I ever even indirectly imply that is the case.