Tchaikovsky's heterosexuality

[Sybarite]

You know that is an interesting thought: is there any hint of homo/heterosexuality in the music itself? Not to get off track, but when I hear Mussorsky's night on bald mountain, it gives me the creeps, like there is some sort of internal strife going on.
Jan

Night on a Bare Mountain is meant to be creepy, since it's about a witches' sabbath. You're not suggesting that Mussorgsky was a witch, are you?

But I think that, over the centuries, a lot of artists of all disciplines have been tormented or borderline mad or dark and complex beings or have simply lived outside of social convention. Perhaps that's to do with the intrinsic nature of art, of creating things – of being gods, in a way – and of the turmoil that does that.

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Hi Sybarite,

now I thought about our discussion which took place here for about a month ago, and I have to admit my opinion on the matter seems to shift slowly to yours. I would not be that categoric now anyway. Sorry about that one more time.

You know that in the modern - pop, rock, whatever - music it works in a different way as it would be in classical. That is, an artist have to find or create himself his own niche in the show biz; create an image corresponding to it; and then follow this image, if he only wants to get a steady fan base and to be sold. And his music must of course correspond to this image as well.

In the classical music, which is and was never that show-dependent, all you have on your hands to judge about the composer's music is actually his music itself - the scores or recordings. Then, to make the conclusions one have to consider not only his/her gender/orientation, but also the actual tendencies in his contemporary arts, all his/her influences, the collaboration with colleague-composers etc. So I believe nevertheless that the conclusions ( of the kind gay - not gay ) still can be made, as it all comes out somehow processed and reflected in "his own way", but then there would be a really large-scale analysis needed. I am not sure if it worth it, generally, though it would be rather interesting to read to the one.

Well then, one can state also, that this thread had gathered ( to the present hour ) 40 posts and 958 views!!!! Which is absolutely unbeatable , if you take a look through this or other MMIF forums. Only games and polls attract more attention ( I wonder if Tchaikovsky alone, without SEXUALITY could get more than 10 posts ). So , it is what people really want to chat about, don't they?

My best regards to London ( and in all other directions ),
Andrew

 

[Kromme]

My understanding is that Wagner was anti-semitic,

Wagner indeed was anti-semitic.He used to put the gloves he wore into dustbin after conducting Mendelssohn.

 

[janny108]

Night on a Bare Mountain is meant to be creepy, since it's about a witches' sabbath. You're not suggesting that Mussorgsky was a witch, are you?

But I think that, over the centuries, a lot of artists of all disciplines have been tormented or borderline mad or dark and complex beings or have simply lived outside of social convention. Perhaps that's to do with the intrinsic nature of art, of creating things – of being gods, in a way – and of the turmoil that does that.

No I'm not suggesting anything about Mussorgsky.
I'm just saying I got bad vibes listening to it, although I enjoy Kovanschina, an opera which he wrote.
Jan

 

[sqrt]

I am also generally of the opinion, that the sexuality of others is no business of mine. I hate gossip about wheather or not a coworker is gay, about what political opinion that-person-over-there has, etc.

But finding out if Tchaikovsky was gay, or if Einstein was left handed, if one composer is jewish and an other is antisemite --- this is not motivated by wanting to snoop around peoples private life. We want to understand the physiology of genious. We want to know: How come these people were so great at what they did? In what ways were they different from or similar to average?

And combined with other studies (made mostly by gay researchers wanting to prove they were born gay), the information that a genious composer or artist was gay gives us knowledge about the structure of his brain; the frame within which his thoughts were to move.

Just like the information that a scientist was left-handed tells us, that his brain was structured differently from most right-handed brains.

Btw: I'm not suggesting, that gay/straight is like black/white with no grays in between. I guess it's a lot more continous, and more multidimensional than that.

 

[rojo]

Stumbled on this article; thought it could be relevant here (or not)-

http://www.scena.org/brand/brand.as...6efb5-7bbc-4151-b9a8-052d3cbf0070//A//k=86149

Too bad I missed the lecture, right in the city where I live...

 

[Conservationist]

As I understand, the claim for his homosexuality has virtually no support, is based purely on speculation.

It's so trendy to claim someone's gay that all sources are corrupted. It's as stigmatized now not to be gay as it once (reportedly, not confirmed) was to be gay.

 

[janny108]

I've seen this article, good for you to post it.
Jan

 

[Sybarite]

... It's as stigmatized now not to be gay as it once ... was to be gay.

No, thanks for that – it's given me the best laugh of the day.

Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to the places in the world that execute heterosexuals for being heterosexual. And maybe you have the statistics for heterosexuals discriminated against and beaten up and murdered for being heterosexuals. And possibly you could list the places where heterosexuals are imprisoned for being, er, heterosexual.

How this stigma works – what does it prevent heterosexuals doing? How does it affect their lives?

 

[FranzD'epinay]

Extra Musical Considerations

As Clarissa was saying, before being rudely interrupted by the moderators, since there is no identifiably "homosexual" way of proportioning a sonata movement, or structuring a cadence, composing a fugue, or conducting a symphony, the question of sexuality would seem to have little bearing on one's consideration of Tchaikovsky's music, and indeed, his unique genius. Certainly, Tchaikovsky's music conveys all the sorrows and vicissitudes that attend all human erotic relationships. Anyway, if you absolutely MUST KNOW, the evidence can be reviewed at the appropriate places, I.E., googlebooks.

 

[Ouled Nails]

As Clarissa was saying, before being rudely interrupted by the moderators, since there is no identifiably "homosexual" way of proportioning a sonata movement, or structuring a cadence, composing a fugue, or conducting a symphony, the question of sexuality would seem to have little bearing on one's consideration of Tchaikovsky's music, and indeed, his unique genius. Certainly, Tchaikovsky's music conveys all the sorrows and vicissitudes that attend all human erotic relationships. Anyway, if you absolutely MUST KNOW, the evidence can be reviewed at the appropriate places, I.E., googlebooks.

''

I have been visiting this site for over one year and a few observations should be quite evident to those who have been here as long or longer:
1. the moderators are extremely polite and civilized;
2. Clarissa did not post anything on this thread;
3. Clarissa was, shall we say, the antithesis of what I have said about the moderators.

Conclusion: Sir, you are either completely blind or you are seeking to enjoy the thrill of seeing this thread lockes because of what appears to be a totally erroneous accusation, libel actually. Go back, and revisit Clarissa's few posts and tell me, objectively, who rudely interrupted what, monsieur Franz d'Espinay.

 

[Muza]

whatever makes you think that he is "straight" according to russians? As a matter of fact, there was quite a large wave of jokes/comments pertaining to Tchaikovskiy's homosexuality in Russia...

 

[Krummhorn]

As Clarissa was saying, before being rudely interrupted by the moderators . . .

Franz,

Nobody has rudely or otherwise interrupted Clarissa in this thread ... Clarissa has no posts in this thread ...

 

[Contratrombone64]

Clarissa deserves interruption as she often makes outrageous (and silly) comments and has aptly demonstrated this on many occasions. If you're going to post in an open community forum like this, be prepared to support your views and keep a civil tongue in your head ...

 

[methodistgirl]

I'm like Sybarite on this one. Big Deal!:grin: I would rather know of the
talent he had when he wrote the music to the Nutcracker and Swan Lake.
I could care less on his life style preference! Let the poor man rest
in peace.
judy tooley

 

[Alban Berg]

I have read many books

The books are saying that he was homosexual...The letters to his brother, also homosexual. There is no doubt...Are you going to like less his music because of that?

That's ridiculous, I think.

Many composers were gay: Britten, Ravel...Do you like his bolero?

Well....enough.

Martin

 

[White Knight]

Well said, Martin! :tiphat::clap:

 

[marval]

I agree Martin, it is his music that counts.


Margaret

 

[JHC]

Personally I couldn’t give 2 hoots what gender he prefers or his politics, so long as it is not forced down my throat. I love his/her music and that is all that matters to me.

 

[Alban Berg]

Well! I have seen many people with titles here: Administrator, commodore, Vice Admiiral virtupso, etc.

I have decided to have a title myself...in French for a chage:

Trou-du-cul.

LOL