music and mathematics

[alexiakl]

wow, I feel that this thread has been created for me, I adore both music and math.. Anyway it's well known that math is the base for everything.. but math alone is blind and senseless.. here comes the music role to enlighten math's eyes

 

[C5Says]

Can't two differing aspects synergize and become one?
Math+Art=Music

 

[Serassi1836]

But also Maths is art.

Maths = a type of art
Music = another
Maths = Music

 

[MorningStar]

Pythagoras would certainly have agreed that music and math are harmonious with one another.
To me music is the only Divine art.

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Hello guys,

my 2 cents to this thread ( a bit too late, I guess )...

First, there is surely a lot af maths in music. Yes, rhythmical patterns, intervals, chord progressions, tensions etc. All figures, you just can't go without them.

Now Bach had used the math proportions to compose not only the Goldberg Variations - actually all of his music, and I would rather mention any Fugue of him as the best example. But , was it only the use of mathemathical formulae what made him a genious composer?

We can as well speak about the proportions in painting arts, which are pure mathemathics. I guess any student of any art college is theoretically able to paint a picture having perfect proportions. But , will all these pictures regarded later as the masterpieces? It's a human touch, maybe slight imperfectness, what makes us hold our breath as we look at the paintings of Picasso or Da Vinci, and not the mathemathics behind them. It is something what I just fail to describe.

Once again - it all can not work without maths. But the art begins exactly where the maths ends.

On my humble opinion....

Now, for the post which gave birth to this thread - I think pilorius could have mentioned aleatoric - the branch of the atonal music, in which the mathemathical equation is being described with the musical means ( intervals, microtonal intervals...). If yes, then it goes in many respects back to one another thread here - STOCKHAUSEN . Whether such music can have a real emotional response in the audience, is a question which left that time unanswered. I can only say, any orchestra performing only this kind of music has to be ready to face the serious financial troubles...Well, finances are maths as well...

cheers
Andrew

 

[Contratrombone64]

harmonious with one another? LOL

 

[Serassi1836]

Have you tried to see this wikipedia page?

 

[methodistgirl]

I still consider math in music to be in the instruments as a form of
geometry. The size and length of different pipes is what makes a
pipe organ play music. On a piano it's the different lengths and
sizes of the strings that give a note. Not forget the different size
drums or every rock band or orchestra would sound like an indian
war dance.:grin::banana: How's that for beethoven's 5th?
judy tooley

 

[Serassi1836]

I still consider math in music to be in the instruments as a form of
geometry. The size and length of different pipes is what makes a
pipe organ play music. On a piano it's the different lengths and
sizes of the strings that give a note. Not forget the different size
drums or every rock band or orchestra would sound like an indian
war dance.:grin::banana: How's that for beethoven's 5th?
judy tooley

Yes, Judy.
The lenght of a string or a pipe and the note you hear are directly proportional.
Proportionality is part of Maths.

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I was reading a Physichs book. It talked about sound and music using math terms. Isn't music maths?????

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Yes, Judy.
The lenght of a string or a pipe and the note you hear are directly proportional.
Proportionality is part of Maths.

-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-

I was reading a Physichs book. It talked about sound and music using math terms. Isn't music maths?????

Serassi, with all my respect -

a string or a pipe produce the sound. The sound itself is still not music. Surely any physical ( i.e. acoustic as well ) event can be described mathematically.

Any interval or chord can be - or should be, if you like -described with math terms. But neither intervals nor chords can be defined as music. They are parts of it, but they are not music itself ( hope you understand what I mean - this last sentence of mine looks like a perfect mess!

 

[MorningStar]

Hi Andrew,
That being the case, which I do agree with you in most part. I would ask what does define music, and of course I know that must an old question in these parts, but perhaps we should take it from there?
I would rule out the old idea of melody / harmony / rhythm since most Middle Eastern and Eastern music does not employ harmony in the functional way.

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Hi Andrew,
That being the case, which I do agree with you in most part. I would ask what does define music, and of course I know that must an old question in these parts, but perhaps we should take it from there?
I would rule out the old idea of melody / harmony / rhythm since most Middle Eastern and Eastern music does not employ harmony in the functional way.

Well, Morning Star, I do agree on that, but as much as I could understand it here - from the beginning of these thread, it was more likely the European ( ok-traditional, classical, modern - you know ) music discussed.

I have once listened to an example of a Corean medieval classical piece. Can not name it now, it was a kind of a very famous national suite, which was composed and accomplished by various composers through the centuries. The piece was performed in Stuttgart by an ensemble of Corean musicians, whose specialization was a medieval Eastern music.

Should I tell you I was completely lost in this piece - just like you mean, no harmony ( as we understand it ), and I could not follow the melodic line too.
The rules seem to be just completely different - for me, it could be a Martian music as well.

But even saying all that, I would be far from an idea of trying to describe it all pure mathematically. They had definitely plunged their soul in what they were playing, and in this case intuition brings more than a calculation...Though as said, I was even unable to say, how many false tones they had produced ( if any...).

 

[methodistgirl]

It takes eight holes for a flute to make music.
judy tooley

 

[JLS]

I agree with Andrew. There is much involved in the creation and experience of music about which mathematics has no say. Why do major and minor chords feel so different? Why do the latter feel sad? What is sadness?

There is a reason that mathematicians are not the best composers and that most composers are not mathematicians...

 

[MorningStar]

Musick's role in mathematics has nothing to do with numbers really, it has to do with Sacred Geometry.

 

[Serassi1836]

Serassi, with all my respect -

a string or a pipe produce the sound. The sound itself is still not music. Surely any physical ( i.e. acoustic as well ) event can be described mathematically.

Any interval or chord can be - or should be, if you like -described with math terms. But neither intervals nor chords can be defined as music. They are parts of it, but they are not music itself ( hope you understand what I mean - this last sentence of mine looks like a perfect mess!

In fact, I don't think that music is only mathematichs: Music is based on Maths.

 

[Serassi1836]

{I have posted twice the same message}

 

[Corno Dolce]

Musick's role in mathematics has nothing to do with numbers really, it has to do with Sacred Geometry.

And Geometry is number in space.

 

[Aatami Aapen]

I think that the music has a mathemathical structure, but is an Art.

 

[methodistgirl]

Where math is in music is iv the making of the instruments with geometry.
You probably wouldn't play a guitar that looked like a box. You would
want one with the figure eight shape and a round hole in it for the sound
unless it's electric.
judy tooley