music and mathematics

[pliorius]

so, what is relation between these two forms of thought?
firstly, i think, there's great historical evidence of music being concerned with mathematics - from paul hindemith's mathesis universalis to my home country composer rytis mazulis whose works you can find on www.megadisc-classics.com. also through names like erkki-sven tuur's architectonics or even webern's 5 pieces for string quartet. what all these have in common is the sense of musical composition being its inner form of numbers. like in pure mathematics it has no other meaning, but just its (compositional/ equational) inner formal order. like mathematics,this music starts from axioms,and stays faithful to the principal of using as little as possible. and, what is of most importance, music, like mathematics, is infinite
- an examples of the infinite that lives in thought.
yet, the question goes - what is it that seperates music from mathematics?
my answer would be - singing. singing, which is subject's voice, born in particular time. mathematics has no concern with subject. music, like all other arts, is of and for subject.
thats my preliminary

 

[Rune Vejby]

It's very simple:

Music is art.
Mathematics is science.

The two should never be combined in the process of creating significant meaning.

 

[pnoom]

Music is math.

Time signatures are math. Note values are math. I'm in a music theory class, and as the teacher said at the beginning of the class, people who are good at math tend to be good at music and vice versa.

Music and math both rely on patterns. Of course they should be combined!

 

[Gustav]

Music is math.

Time signatures are math. Note values are math. I'm in a music theory class, and as the teacher said at the beginning of the class, people who are good at math tend to be good at music and vice versa.

not exactly, time signatures, note values all concern with Arithmtic. But, Mathematics is far more diverse than just simple arithmetic, it's about analytical thinking, problem solving, and geometry too.

Music and math both rely on patterns. Of course they should be combined!

this statement is illogical. All the sciences rely on patterns, is it true that Music is also chemistry? or biology?
Just because two things follow certain patterns, that intersect each other in some areas(albeit not much). It doesn't imply that "Music is Math". To my knowledge, all the great composers weren't great mathematicians, and the great mathematicians seldom write masterful works of music.

think about it, science concerns with the development of "models", that can reproduce a situation with great accuracy. e.g physical laws of nature. Suppose that your statement: "music is math" is valid, then a smart mathematician/scientist can come up with a model, that describes, and to a large extend can reproduce music. Then, suppose this scientist writes an algorithm (which is not difficult to do, since it's based on a set of mathematical laws), a computer program. Hypothetically speaking, the computer then, is capable of writing symphonies, and string quartets in the style of say Beethoven? You see how nonsensical this is?

 

[Corno Dolce]

If my memory serves me, Rachmaninoff said that music is to be the sum of one's life experiences: Faith, Love, Literature, Travel, Family, Home, and Nation. Sorta gives lie to the notion of music is like mathematics. Imagine having to write algorithmic code which can encompass human emotional and physical experience in the aforementioned areas. I don't see the grant funding institutions like NASA, JPL, and NSF or even the Ford Foundation pitching monies to this venture anytime soon. Who is gonna pay the scientist/mathematician team to do research on the topic of *music is like math*?

 

[pnoom]

Arithmetic is a type of math. Music is not completely math (obviously), but it does touch on various aspects of it. To suggest that the two are completely disimilar is simply wrong. It's really not a matter of opinion (but maybe that's just IMO).

And, to an extent, there are algorithms for music. Different key signatures are sadder than others. The tritone appeals to fear (as does a major seventh, as I recall). Obviously, there is an intellectual aspect that cannot be captured by a computer, but music is, in its essence, an emotional interpretation of basic mathematical properties.

Another example of how music is math:

If you have a string and pluck it, it produces a note (we'll choose C for good measure). If you cut the string in half and pluck one of the pieces, you again get the note C, but an octave above.

 

[methodistgirl]

Yes there's math in music. There are eight notes in an octive. There is
the time signature at the begining before the notes. Sure! Don't forget
to count the number of pages in your sheet music and measures.
judy tooley

 

[Gustav]

If you have a string and pluck it, it produces a note (we'll choose C for good measure). If you cut the string in half and pluck one of the pieces, you again get the note C, but an octave above.

Very true, that's a physical phenomenon, and can be described by models. Such phenomenons, i admit are more than just simple coincidences, but even so, it's hardly "Music" in the conventional sense. Although it is curious how some aspect of music relates to arithmetic, the process of music making is an entirely different matter.

Arithmetic is not math, arithmetic is a subset of mathematics. Calculus is a branch of mathematics too, so is trigonometry. But, Calculus and Trig are different from arithmetic.

 

[pnoom]

"Arithmetic is not math, arithmetic is a subset of mathematics"

By saying that arithmetic is math, what I mean is that it is a subset of mathematics, not that all math is arithmetic.

I believe my posts generally agree with your statement that music making as a process is not mathematical (necessarily).

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi pnoom,

Methinks that you might be skating on thin ice with your assumption *In essence, music is an emotional interpretation of basic mathematical properties. Mathematics has not codified the emotional experiences we sense when we read Shakespeare and Dostoevsky or when we witness an act of terrorism a la 9/11. Now, Music and Poetry very much codify each other, albeit in other terms.

When doing computer modeling using the mathematical sub-discipline of Analytical Mechanics as help in visualising various physical structures like buildings, the image seen can elicit an emotional response as can plugging in an algorithmic code for a visual computer program that generates and colors fractal images.

As you say, there are some algorithms for music and that is a sub-discipline in itself.

Also, I did not mean to imply that music and math are totally dissimilar - far be it from me to make such a scurrilous assumption.

Music is also Mathematical Physics in action - think String Theory and Branes, and Acoustics even. And thats not all...

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

 

[pnoom]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. The very point of what I said was that "mathematics has not codified the emotional experiences we sense...," but that we use mathematical patterns coupled with our reactions to these emotional experiences to create a musical representation of the experiences.

 

[vriofrio]

Rune, Hi.

It's very complex

Music is art. Science is art. Chimistry is science. Everything is about:

science / art / Technology.

¿Could be art without technology?

¿Could be technology without art?

Let´s make connections.


Mathematics is science.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi pnoom,

My fault I fear - I misread, misunderstood, and misinterpreted what you wrote.

My Bad :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Hopefully, I'm not regarded as a misanthrope :smirk:

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

 

[pnoom]

Yay! Headbang time!

But seriously, don't worry about it. I've read that 50% of all forum posts/emails are misinterpreted (because you don't have body language and tone to help, just emoticons).

I don't hold grudges (at least, not over the internet). Except for the one grudge that drove me away from a forum I otherwise liked (but that was for something far more serious than a mere misinterpretation - the guy misinterpreted a harmless joke I made, responded far too violently even if his interpretation was correct, then when I tried to explain things to him, blew me off; people here are far too respectful to take such a simple mistake that far).

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi pnoom,

Thou art a noble mensch. Aaaach - well - maybe I'm misunderestimating sometimes.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

 

[pliorius]

you've come a long way since my last post. good. i forgot to write an opening quotation for the topic, which was pessoa's, now i don't remember it so good, but it goes like this - newtonian equation is as beautiful as a blossom of the flower. so, the meaning would be to take beauty as a formal (and in a way cold) property.
rytis mazulis, for example, by using microtones, creates a realy beautiful geometrical/architectural sheet of music. his black notes lying on the paper are much the same as sound - overtly structured, bare, and beautiful. so, i think, geometrical/architectural form of writing is very much an inspiration for the sound itself.
now, for example take morton feldman, you almost can't see no diffrence in his notes on paper, same patterns all over (in the same piece of music), except for some minor change to occur, which gives beauty to music. and take some mathematical equation - it's much the same - couple of moves here and there may make one equation completely preferable (more beautiful, or just beautiful) to another. what i am suggesting is that it's not a far way from these to processes, at least for some kind of music. as for emotions - they are more or less patterns of experience, nothing more.so, they can be put in terms of scientific research, and maths, no doubt. as a piece of music has no inner feeling, so does equations. yet, one, engaged in them may feel diffrent kind of feelings.
by introducing notion of 'singing', i was trying to go to completely other direction. which was not that of theory, but of history. singing, time and voice would emerge as a names for such a demarcation, and a possiblity for music as subjective ongoing into objects of sound (which has properties much the same as maths). the name for this subject to emerge is an event. there's no music without an event, or events. let's say dodecaphonic/twelve music tone event put into life so much new music, which was completely out of reach for the classical bach,haydn,mozart. this event, like the ones before, have brought into being a thing which theoretically has much the same properties - desire for structure, for patterns, for formal order. yet, what was completely diffrent, was a new subject emerging out of that event. a new voice, new singing, new time. so, i think, only this feature, is that, which seperates music from math. math is eternal, and underlies all of our activity. it's necessary. music is not. it's a voice, written in the language much the same as maths, yet from completely diffrent time and place.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hello pliorius,

I think I understand pretty much what you're saying but I must digress about your statement in regards to music not being necessary. Music, like math is also eternal in that it appeals to all humans ergo, it will elicit a response in all races and occupational fields - from the Harijans aka the *untouchables* in India to Presidents and CEO's. It is a gift from the Creator. I totally agree that math underlies all our activities - it is also a gift from the Creator and so is Mathematical Physics. JSBach always affixed SDGL[soli deo gloria] at the end of every score. The mystic composer and organist Charles Tournemire said: *Music that does not praise God is worthless*.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

 

[pliorius]

h, corno, personally i would agree that music is necessary, only in a slightly lighter version of a word, there's no music without math, yet, there can be math without music. while still there might not be true life without music.
and as for creator, you already know my version of the topic
well, even einstein would say after hearing some music - 'that's alanguage of god'.
and - just a post note - ludwig witgenstein (philosopher of quite analytic capabilities) had a brother, who was a good pianist, to whom ravel wrote his piano concerto for left hand (which witgenstein the pianist has lost in the first world war), and even ludwig himself practiced music and could've been a real good conductor.

 

[Pacific 231]

I have often realized what math teachers are very interested in music. And a lot of musicians, especially composers, conductors or organists, have good knowing in math. Than I imagine it is not by pure chance.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi Pliorius,

I totally agree that there can be math without music. Math is a wonderful tool to describe dynamic processes around us - complemented with Physics and Chemistry - then one has a wonderful toolbox to help unlock thorny problems that beset mankind.

Cheers,

Corno Dolce

Btw - I left you a private message.