similarities between Brahms and Beethoven

[JHC]

Other than the obvious fact that Brahms sounds similar to Beethoven (in small aspects) in some of his symphonies, what other similarities are in their music? Brahms being from the Romantic era and influenced by figures such Liszt and Schumann and the great composer Bach (from the Baroque era) in terms of his counterpoints and harmonic complexities, what other influences are in Brahms music. There is always the influence folk music in his famous Hungarian Dances. So would you say Brahms and Beethoven sounded too much alike or did Brahms have his own distinguished sound. Discuss.

Jeez what a fool I am I thought you wanted to discuss :
similarities between Brahms and Beethoven

 

[Soubasse]

Some interesting (and sometimes lively!) exchanges here.
Not for the sake of causing further arguements, but rather to comment on one thing that hasn't been brought up, I wouldn't say I agree with the idea of Brahms taking the Classical era into the Romantic. For my ears, that role belonged most firmly with Ludwig. From the Eroica symphony onwards, Beethoven was - sometimes subtly, often unsubtly - pushing the standards of Classicism to accomodate the needs of human expression. By the time Brahms was composing, he had the meatier and already largely Romantic works of LvB to draw upon.
Brahms for me is the most representative German Romantic. Yes, I know - for a great majority, it's Wagner who deserves that title, but there exists a brusqueness and, for want of better words, often overinflated egotism and superiority. Brahms works possess a "lush" and rich quality which, also for many, epitomises a "romantic" quality.
There are also times when (again, just for my ears) Brahms music takes on a little of a French accent. Just my two cents fwiw.

 

[Nima]

Some interesting (and sometimes lively!) exchanges here.
Not for the sake of causing further arguements, but rather to comment on one thing that hasn't been brought up, I wouldn't say I agree with the idea of Brahms taking the Classical era into the Romantic. For my ears, that role belonged most firmly with Ludwig. From the Eroica symphony onwards, Beethoven was - sometimes subtly, often unsubtly - pushing the standards of Classicism to accomodate the needs of human expression. By the time Brahms was composing, he had the meatier and already largely Romantic works of LvB to draw upon.
Brahms for me is the most representative German Romantic. Yes, I know - for a great majority, it's Wagner who deserves that title, but there exists a brusqueness and, for want of better words, often overinflated egotism and superiority. Brahms works possess a "lush" and rich quality which, also for many, epitomises a "romantic" quality.
There are also times when (again, just for my ears) Brahms music takes on a little of a French accent. Just my two cents fwiw.

Well, I wouldn't say that Brahms sounds like it has a French accent to it, although I think I know what you mean by that. I also realize the fact that Beethoven was a pioneer of bringing Romanticism into classical music; a transitional figure for that matter. Although, the fact that Brahms used structure and formalism into his music is undeniable. Even listening to other Romantic composers, the harmonic complexities and inter-connectivity of these harmonies which is wonderful to hear, is present. But for the part I have listened to, it is vividly in Brahms's abilities or say, a preference of his musical thought to experiment with these harmonic counterpoints and complexities which Bach is famous for.

As for the Avatar, it was a longtime coming!

Cheers

 

[JHC]

Some interesting (and sometimes lively!) exchanges here.
Not for the sake of causing further arguements, but rather to comment on one thing that hasn't been brought up, I wouldn't say I agree with the idea of Brahms taking the Classical era into the Romantic. For my ears, that role belonged most firmly with Ludwig. From the Eroica symphony onwards, Beethoven was - sometimes subtly, often unsubtly - pushing the standards of Classicism to accomodate the needs of human expression. By the time Brahms was composing, he had the meatier and already largely Romantic works of LvB to draw upon.
Brahms for me is the most representative German Romantic. Yes, I know - for a great majority, it's Wagner who deserves that title, but there exists a brusqueness and, for want of better words, often overinflated egotism and superiority. Brahms works possess a "lush" and rich quality which, also for many, epitomises a "romantic" quality.
There are also times when (again, just for my ears) Brahms music takes on a little of a French accent. Just my two cents fwiw.

Trying not to go off topic :grin:
I agree that LvB bridged the classical/romantic era, but to suggest that the two composers sound similar to me is way off target, LvB symphonies are exciting and use the orchestral sections and individual instruments to such great effect whereas Brahms sound mushy and muddled his orchestration is pitiful compared to LvB, their musical voices are so different even none musicians can hear the difference.

 

[Nima]

Trying not to go off topic :grin:
I agree that LvB bridged the classical/romantic era, but to suggest that the two composers sound similar to me is way off target, LvB symphonies are exciting and use the orchestral sections and individual instruments to such great effect whereas Brahms sound mushy and muddled his orchestration is pitiful compared to LvB, their musical voices are so different even none musicians can hear the difference.

we profoundly disagree on Brahms and cannot come to any common grounds on the matter. And calling him mushy and muddled is in my opinion distasteful and ludicrous. But I guess it is due to the diversity of tastes and thought that great music is made and expressed, nonetheless.

 

[JHC]

we profoundly disagree on Brahms and cannot come to any common grounds on the matter. And calling him mushy and muddled is in my opinion distasteful and ludicrous. But I guess it is due to the diversity of tastes and thought that great music is made and expressed, nonetheless.

I see you cut out the ad hom content of your post, very wise.
I agree arguing is futile but there is no need to be offensive just because I do not share your view, btw what instrument do you play or are you a coductor ?

 

[Soubasse]

The only reason I mentioned the French accent was that there are parts of Brahms's 4th Symphony (my favourite Brahms symph) that could almost have been written by Berlioz (in his quieter, introspective moments). Nothing huge or outstanding, but just a motif here or a change of texture there, but enough to make me think there was a little less of a German quality and a little more of a French quality. There are also parts of the German Requiem that do the same for me.

Also, the only point I was commenting upon was whether it was LvB or Brahms that moved the Classical era into Romantic. I too do not think that there are that many similarities between the music of these two composers, and largely for the same reasons JHC has outlined above - although I would not personally call Brahms's music "muddled". Brahms's orchestrations usually tended to be "safe" whereas LvB was always willing to push things.
LvB was also often a lot more adventurous with his harmonies (in context that is - it may not sound adventurous compared to the sorts of harmonies heard in the times of Brahms, but in context of what was the "norm" in the Classical era, LvB was often pushing it. Remember that some colleagues unkindly thought LvB had completely lost it when he started the Allegretto mvt of his 7th with an inversion!).

Brahms was born 6 years after LvB's death so there was no overlap as there were with other composers in history (ie, one well-known composer knowing, meeting or being taught by another well-known composer). However, knowing that Brahms was a big fan of the likes of Bach and Beethoven, it's inevitable that he would "inherit" an affection for form and structure. Personally, I think that was really all he inherited though. Some of Brahms's harmonies are conservative even by Classical standards, let alone Romantic standards (which I find a little odd given that Brahms was so favoured by Schumann).

If Brahms "bridged" anything, for my ears it was the use of counterpoint. From the precision usage of it by Bach through to the often convoluted usage of it by Wagner, Brahms (I think anyway) sits in the middle, putting it nicely into his quite certain structures and relatively conservative harmonies.

I realise I've possibly overused the word conservative, but all in all, I don't think Brahms is any less deserving of his place in history than most others (I'll still prefer him over the likes of Mendelssohn or Wagner - but my "go to" Romantic composer will forever be Berlioz ).

 

[Nima]

I see you cut out the ad hom content of your post, very wise.
I agree arguing is futile but there is no need to be offensive just because I do not share your view, btw what instrument do you play or are you a coductor ?

I sincerely am sorry if I offended you, please forgive me. I do not play an instrument though I am trying to learn the Santur which is an Middle-Eastern instrument.

 

[Nima]

The only reason I mentioned the French accent was that there are parts of Brahms's 4th Symphony (my favourite Brahms symph) that could almost have been written by Berlioz (in his quieter, introspective moments). Nothing huge or outstanding, but just a motif here or a change of texture there, but enough to make me think there was a little less of a German quality and a little more of a French quality. There are also parts of the German Requiem that do the same for me.

Also, the only point I was commenting upon was whether it was LvB or Brahms that moved the Classical era into Romantic. I too do not think that there are that many similarities between the music of these two composers, and largely for the same reasons JHC has outlined above - although I would not personally call Brahms's music "muddled". Brahms's orchestrations usually tended to be "safe" whereas LvB was always willing to push things.
LvB was also often a lot more adventurous with his harmonies (in context that is - it may not sound adventurous compared to the sorts of harmonies heard in the times of Brahms, but in context of what was the "norm" in the Classical era, LvB was often pushing it. Remember that some colleagues unkindly thought LvB had completely lost it when he started the Allegretto mvt of his 7th with an inversion!).

Brahms was born 6 years after LvB's death so there was no overlap as there were with other composers in history (ie, one well-known composer knowing, meeting or being taught by another well-known composer). However, knowing that Brahms was a big fan of the likes of Bach and Beethoven, it's inevitable that he would "inherit" an affection for form and structure. Personally, I think that was really all he inherited though. Some of Brahms's harmonies are conservative even by Classical standards, let alone Romantic standards (which I find a little odd given that Brahms was so favoured by Schumann).

If Brahms "bridged" anything, for my ears it was the use of counterpoint. From the precision usage of it by Bach through to the often convoluted usage of it by Wagner, Brahms (I think anyway) sits in the middle, putting it nicely into his quite certain structures and relatively conservative harmonies.

I realise I've possibly overused the word conservative, but all in all, I don't think Brahms is any less deserving of his place in history than most others (I'll still prefer him over the likes of Mendelssohn or Wagner - but my "go to" Romantic composer will forever be Berlioz ).

There is no doubt that Brahms was a formalist and had a love for structure and Baroque era complexities and harmonies; I also wonder why he's piano playing was so favored by Schumann. I guess he saw a true Romantic in him, nevertheless. Maybe I should have... and I tried, to change the title of thread from "similarities" to "Brahms and Beethoven" but was not able to do so. I also did state that there were "small similarities" in their music in the first place. Anyhow, I agree with your post.

 

[Soubasse]

But of course there are similarities ... their names both start with a B.
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA .... HAHA . . . ha ... ahem.
I'll just get my hat and go then.

 

[Art Rock]

I have had no musical trainig at all, so my opinion is only based on my appreciation of their music. And there Brahms wins hands down for me. In terms of symphonies, I like only Beethoven's sixth better than Brahms' fabulous four, with his fifth on par, and the rest below (some way below). Their concertos are at a similar high level, but in choral music Ein Deutsches Requiem outshines everything Ludwig did for me (including the Missa Solemnis and Fidelio). Piano music maybe a slight edge to Ludwig, but I am not crazy about that genre anyway. But it is in chamber music that Brahms really shines, and outclasses even the string quartets (the only sub-genre in chamber music where I prefer Beethoven).

 

[Nima]

Hi, Art Rock, this is off topic but I like your Porcupine Tree Avatar. As for Brahms and Beethoven, I too prefer Brahms. Although not liking Beethoven for a classical musical listener is considered a sin

 

[JHC]

I sincerely am sorry if I offended you, please forgive me. I do not play an instrument though I am trying to learn the Santur which is an Middle-Eastern instrument.

Concider it forgotten Nima, The Santur will be an interesting instrument to learn but you won't be playing much Brahms on it :grin:

 

[Nima]

Concider it forgotten Nima, The Santur will be an interesting instrument to learn but you won't be playing much Brahms on it :grin:

Well, thank you. No... Brahms wouldn't go very well on Satur, would it? By the way, what is your name?

 

[JHC]

But it is in chamber music that Brahms really shines, and outclasses even the string quartets (the only sub-genre in chamber music where I prefer Beethoven).

I do not quite understand Art Rock are you saying Brahms St Qts are better than LvB St Qts ?

 

[JHC]

Well, thank you. No... Brahms wouldn't go very well on Satur, would it? By the way, what is your name?

Nima my tag is Colin, now how about putting some info on your profile page otherwise we might get the wrong impression :tiphat:

 

[Art Rock]

I do not quite understand Art Rock are you saying Brahms St Qts are better than LvB St Qts ?

No, I meant that only in string quartets I prefer Beethoven over Brahms. All other chamber music it's Brahms for me. As a result, Brahms is my preference in chamber music over all.

 

[JHC]

Oh, you got me worried for a moment, Brahms Piano trios are very good and the Violin sonatas, really its just his symphonies that I don't rate very much as I said in an earlier post.