prokofiev--best melodist of 20th century?

[some guy]

Lest anyone think Contratrombone64 is just being an old grumpy gus, let me just ask, with him, "based on what???"

Really. Instead of all stuff about Shostakovich, how about hijacking this thread to talk about Prokofiev, maybe about other aspects of his art besides his unquestionably fine melodic sense? Or maybe to note that his interest in polytonality is not only harmonic but melodic as well; some of his more intriguing melodies (like in Divertimento) start off in one key and end up in another. Or that clarinet solo in the Quintet that gets onto one note, and then just stays there.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi CT64,

You're swingin' today, eh?

Anyway, Imnsho Shostakovich gets my vote since he was a tunesmith with a rhythmic ear and exploited the instrumentation he wrote for in such a nuanced fashion that he made Prokofieff seem arcanely academic. Quite often he made so much music with so few notes. Now, since most of the regular MIMF membership has alit on this thread and given their $0.64 cents worth, I think we can settle down once again and appreciate one another's passion for this or
that composer or genre. You know where I stand and I can likewise entertain your choices.

Best regards,

CD :grin::grin::grin:

 

[some guy]

Shostakovich ... was a tunesmith with a rhythmic ear and exploited the instrumentation he wrote for in such a nuanced fashion that he made Prokofieff seem arcanely academic.

What a strange remark! No, really. Rhythmic ear? Arcanely academic? I want some of what you've been smokin', dude, I mean it. (Nuanced fashion refers to those natty overcoats he used to wear, doesn't it?)

Any road, I don't think that comparisons of Prokofiev and Shostakovich will reveal anything about either composer and only some jejune information about the people who listen to them.

Both wrote some very fine music. Both wrote some dreadful music. Kinda like Mozart and Haydn, eh? But so what? The people who prefer Shostakovich value certain things. The people who prefer Prokofiev value other things. Most of us manage to enjoy individual pieces by both.

 

[Contratrombone64]

*chews the cud ...*

 

[Contratrombone64]

Lest anyone think Contratrombone64 is just being an old grumpy gus[sic].

Corno and I have a good relationship, very good. He knows me very well.

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi some guy,

Send me your address in a pm and I'll send you the world's finest Hawaiian Pakalolo, ok? :grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

You said you wanted some of what I've been smokin'

Cheers,

CD

 

[Kromme]

Maybe we should create a poll about this topic.Master Krummhorn can you give us a hand here,please?

 

[some guy]

No no no!! No more polls. Polls are anathema to serious intellectual discourse.

Oh. You mean a poll about varieties of weed. Oh. Well never mind, then. Poll on, bro!

But seriously, I did have a question for all the folks who think Stravinsky wasn't a great melodist. How much Stravinsky do you know? Well?

I remember my uncle observing once that after he'd listened to Le Sacre several times, he noticed how melodic it was. Sure, there's a lot of pounding and thumping going on, but what's really noticeable on repeated hearings are all the cool melodic lines. (Some of these are part of the pounding, you understand. Not all melodies are nice smooth pretty rock you sleep at nice things. Some of them are wake you up rough throw you around kick you in the seat of the pants nice things.)

 

[Corno Dolce]

Some Guy,

Since you're on the topic of weed - now, why ARE you so interested in weed, Hmmmm???:devil:

You brought it up - If ya gonna start something, ya gotta be prepared to finish it. :grin::grin::grin:

 

[rojo]

No no no!! No more polls. Polls are anathema to serious intellectual discourse.

Oh. You mean a poll about varieties of weed. Oh. Well never mind, then. Poll on, bro!

But seriously, I did have a question for all the folks who think Stravinsky wasn't a great melodist. How much Stravinsky do you know? Well?

I remember my uncle observing once that after he'd listened to Le Sacre several times, he noticed how melodic it was. Sure, there's a lot of pounding and thumping going on, but what's really noticeable on repeated hearings are all the cool melodic lines. (Some of these are part of the pounding, you understand. Not all melodies are nice smooth pretty rock you sleep at nice things. Some of them are wake you up rough throw you around kick you in the seat of the pants nice things.)

ROFL! :lol:

My partner just pointed out something; he says there are lyrics to the Sacre's opening bassoon solo. The bassoon sings these words to it; try it- "I'm not an English horn, this is too high for me, I'm not an English horn..." :lol: Poor bassoon.

A truly lovely melody, is my point here. And there are indeed lots of other lovely melodic bits in the Sacre including, but notwithstanding, the ones that are part of the pounding. Go Stravinsky! :grin:

(I really must try to fit the word 'jejune' into my vocabulary. It's very recherché. :up

Art Rock- Good point about Puccini. Lovely melodies for sure.

 

[Kromme]

Le Sacre
Firebird
Petrushka
Symphony of Psalms
Symphony In 3 Movements

 

[Contratrombone64]

ROFL! :lol:

My partner just pointed out something; he says there are lyrics to the Sacre's opening bassoon solo. The bassoon sings these words to it; try it- "I'm not an English horn, this is too high for me, I'm not an English horn..." :lol: Poor bassoon.

I love that opening "birdsong" evocation of the Rite, Miss Rojo - it's one of my all time favourite pieces, I think I've got about 12 recordings of Le Sacre, and each one I adore for different reasons (I don't own Karajan's, if he ever recorded it).

 

[rojo]

Me too, Contra. Fab stuff.

Geez, is the joke I posted so old that everyone already knows it? Oh well, it bears repeating; it's cute. :grin:

I listened to Prokofiev's Toccata today, Martha Argerich playing. Melody was not his only specialty. 'Twas a treat.

 

[some guy]

I listened to Prokofiev's Toccata today, Martha Argerich playing. Melody was not his only specialty. 'Twas a treat.

Hahaha! And I, for my part, remember reading about Toccata long before I ever heard it. All about the repetition. The rhythmic, propulsive drive.

Then I heard it.

Melodies. All the way through, melodies. The opening one (where there are all those D's lined up in a row) being the most memorable. Indeed, when I first read this post, what popped into my head was the tune. dum Dum Dum Dum Dum Dee Dee Dee Deedle Dum. (I love when these discussion get all technical, don't you?)

It is a treat. Melody was not his only specialty. If it were, he would not be considered a great composer. Rhythm, harmony, timbre, development, polytonality, unexpected twists and turns, and an inexhaustible gift for putting everything together into pieces that continually surprise and delight.

There's glory for you!

 

[Contratrombone64]

In the hands of Martha Argerich, even twinkle twinkle little star would be thrilling.

 

[rojo]

Hahaha! And I, for my part, remember reading about Toccata long before I ever heard it. All about the repetition. The rhythmic, propulsive drive.

Then I heard it.

Melodies. All the way through, melodies. The opening one (where there are all those D's lined up in a row) being the most memorable. Indeed, when I first read this post, what popped into my head was the tune. dum Dum Dum Dum Dum Dee Dee Dee Deedle Dum. (I love when these discussion get all technical, don't you?)

It is a treat. Melody was not his only specialty. If it were, he would not be considered a great composer. Rhythm, harmony, timbre, development, polytonality, unexpected twists and turns, and an inexhaustible gift for putting everything together into pieces that continually surprise and delight.

There's glory for you!

Yes, we need more tech talk around here. Personally, I can also hear the opening as Bee Boo Bee Boo Bee Boo... with the low D sounding against every 2nd high D.

Well, perhaps the melody is what's most memorable for you, but for me it's that rhythmic, propulsive drive that I appreciate most in this piece. I'm a big fan of rhythmic, propulsive drive. I guess peeps are in no way required to enjoy the same things in every piece, and I was certainly not meaning that there is an absence of melody in this piece. No law against repeated notes in a melody.

 

[some guy]

No. You're wrong!!

Tee hee. But seriously, I was thinking how to describe that offbeat thing that makes Toccata really special, but didn't come up with anything.

So for all you playing at home, just align the deedums and the beeboos and you'll have it!

Or just buy yourself a copy of the piece. Which reminds me. I don't have Argerich's version. She may emphasize different elements from Eteri Andjaparidze. I should probably get hers anyway.

 

[rojo]

Again? Geez.

There surely is a term for that offbeat thing, and I'll probably think of it shortly after I've logged off. Probably while I'm out doing errands, and then I'll promptly forget about it.

One probably can't have too many Toccatas. :up:

I've just been listening to another Prokofiev (there's no cool way to abbreviate his name, is there) work; Scythian Suite. So very remindful of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. I haven't looked up what the exact relationship there might be between the two, and I don't recall studying S.S. at school, (R. of S. yes,) but so many things in common-

Rite of Spring: written 1912-13
Scythian Suite: written 1915

both:

deal with Pagan rituals, sacrifice
employ a huge orchestra
have a 'barbaric' nature
written for ballet (originally, in the case of S.S.)
negatively received
presented to Diaghilev (he rejected S.S., so Prokofiev made it into a suite.)

How about them apples? Or are they just apples and oranges. *scratches head*

 

[Kromme]

In the hands of Martha Argerich, even twinkle twinkle little star would be thrilling.

So true.

 

[some guy]

Diaghilev wanted another success* like Le Sacre and on the strength of Prokofiev's 2nd piano concerto, I guess he though Serge could be the one to supply it. (Prokofiev wanted to do an opera on The Gambler.) Anyway, they agreed on Ala et Lolly, only Diaghilev didn't like the music when he saw it (too much like the Stravinsky to cause its own scandal) so axed the project. Prokofiev's Buffoon was his first Diaghilev ballet.

There's some uncertainty about when Prokofiev first saw Le Sacre, even though he said late in his life that he was consciously trying to emulate it in Ala et Lolly. Well, at least he liked his own music well enough to make the Scythian Suite out of the ballet. Good thing. It's a stunner for sure.

Next week, "Love for Three Oranges, should it be performed in French or in Russian?"

*irony