Musical Geniuses!

AM:PM

New member
I think we do agree, naming a person doesnt really make them a genius. Its the why that counts!

For sure a songs longevity has something to do with good song writing/perfomance.

You ask about my list.


For timeless songs - Louis Armstrong, Stevie Wonder and Elton John would amongst others make the list

Kraftwerk, Stevie Wonder, Herbie Hancock, George Duke, Stanley Clark - would make my list for innovation

Norman Whitefield, Thom Bell, Burt Bacharach, Prince, Elton John, Nina Simone for songwriting......the list goes on
 

WalkingTheSky

New member
There's nothing wrong in being subjective, is there? After all, music is not only a matter of technicalities, it is very much a matter of feelings and emotions. Just like all other arts.

I guess another of my criteria is, that I imagine a genius' music to be played still in 20-50 years time, at least.

I'm in complete agreement with you. I believe we all consider geniuses to be the artists that touch a part of us. Songs and melodies that bring up emotion. For me, for example, John Mayer's lyrics are extremely poetic and beautiful to me. So, I deem him a genius. But, he's a musical genius in MY eyes.

This is a wonderful discussion.
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It seems to me that The Beatles would then be considered geniuses...right? When they arrived in '64, they were already huge because their record released shortly before. Now, in 2004, that makes their arrival 40 years old. Their songs are still being downloaded and their albums are still being bought. And, let's not forget, the radio blasts their tunes regularly.

So, your point is proved in my eyes.
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mhoarse

New member
Again, just an opinion, but I think 'genius' is generally reserved for an exceptional talent, a cut above the rest. The dictionary I'm looking at defines genius as: "natural ability or tendency; special mental endowments; exalted intellectual power; instinctive and extraordinary imaginative, creative or inventive capacity."

I imagine someone with an original approach and a great natural ability, which result in their music being interesting and different to the norm.

I guess being a musician raises your standards slightly on who would be a genius, for example I would perhaps say that Nickelback or John Mayer are 'clever' for writing some good pop tunes, but would reserve the genius status for someone who really pushes the boundaries and makes me (as a musician) say 'whoa, i wish i'd done that'.

A few names I could suggest: The Beatles, Brian Wilson, Miles Davis, Stevie Wonder, Burt Bacharach, Ennio Morricone, Eric Dolphy, Charles Mingus, Bernard Herrmann, Nino Rota, Bjork, Tom Waits, etc, etc. Again as someone else said, these are not necessarily things that I love or listen to all the time...
 

Jette

Rear Admiral of O Theatre & the 4 - 1 + a few more
mhoarse I think you are right, that musicians probably looks at the music in a more technically way/raises the standards in comparison to "ordinary" people who has to go with there gut feelings, because we don´t have the technical knowledge to jugde by. So I guess you can never define the word genius, it all depends on the person listening
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Jette
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AM:PM

New member
Mhoarse...you're on.
Somebody mentioned Madonna as a genious. Could somebody tell me whats ingenious about Madonna's music? The music, -which usually isnt her composition, the lyrics? Normally co-written, her voice? Her videos? Isnt she more of an over exposed contemporary artist with everything pop wrapped all around her?
 

corno

Vice Admiral of Notes, Dots & at times also Slurs
Sr. Regulator
Maybe some of the definition problems arises when trying to define a "classic" (not "classical") as a genius.
You can always argue the definition of a genius and if a genious composer/songwriter transcends the "classic" term rather than being the personification of a "all-time classic".

Geniousness doesn't need to be attributed solely to the compositional area of a "musical genius", the performance, attitude and general philosophy of a given artist/composer could all contribute towards a classic/genius "verdict".

Madonna is definitely a milestone in the popculture of the 20th century, whether she'll be a "classic" or a "genius" depends on your definition. I wouldn't say genius myself, more like an icon. I think it's very hard to put "popular artist" in the "genius" box if your definition of genius needs some inherent originality and the expansion of the musical genre-based borders.
 

WalkingTheSky

New member
I guess being a musician raises your standards slightly on who would be a genius, for example I would perhaps say that Nickelback or John Mayer are 'clever' for writing some good pop tunes, but would reserve the genius status for someone who really pushes the boundaries and makes me (as a musician) say 'whoa, i wish i'd done that'.

A few names I could suggest: The Beatles, Brian Wilson, Miles Davis, Stevie Wonder, Burt Bacharach, Ennio Morricone, Eric Dolphy, Charles Mingus, Bernard Herrmann, Nino Rota, Bjork, Tom Waits, etc, etc. Again as someone else said, these are not necessarily things that I love or listen to all the time...

You're right. I definitely see your point. But as I was saying, sometimes, a word like "genius" is used very causally. So, in my eyes, a few artists that I've mentioned are extremely talented and worth mentioning, at least, but they're only at that status in my eyes. And that's okay, I think.

I also see your point-of-view, being that of a musician in the musical field, whereas, I am not affiliated with that area and have never even played an instrument before. Our views on the world of artists and composers vary, but I think both opinions are quite valid.

I do agree whole-heartedly, that the artists deemed "genius" are not always the ones you listen to all the time or love.
 

Marjorie

New member
Just found this thread and genius brings someone instantly to mind. Of course, I'm a bit prejudiced since I run a fan club for him, but I wouldn't hesitate to call Frank McNamara a genius. Frank graduated high school at 14, college at 18 and then at that young age, became Music Director of Ireland's Late Late Show, which position he held for 19 years. There's isn't a genre of music that Frank hasn't touched - classical, jazz, pop, country, blues. He's performed with Roger Daltrey, Gladys Knight, Chak Khan, Jeffrey Osborne, Duran Duran, LeAnn Rimes, Jewel, Seal, The Irish Tenors and The American Tenors. He composes, arranges, conducts and is a virtuoso pianist. He truly deserves the title of genius.

Marjorie

www.frankmcnamara.com
 

acciaccatura

Guest
IMO, the term 'genious' is just a consideration. A genious is someone with an extraordinary brain power, and I think most people agree that Mozart was a genious. But was Beethoven not? Or Stravinsky? What about Pachelbel? Orff? Perhaps 'genious' is just one more misinterpreted, overused word that really carries little significance. It can apply to anyone and no one, take your pick.
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giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Hi acciaccatura,

How about Bach as a musical genius or Telemann?

When composers can be described in loving terms after their death then that can be used as a measure of their being a genius. Let me briefly expand: How does one want to be remembered - for one's selfless engagement to help the next generation be inspired by the masters, being a spokesperson for the necessity of everyone learning to play an instrument(besides singing) and musical composition(multiple-part harmony) during their formative years in the gymnasium(High-School) as a prerequisite to go onto college, or as a performer who ceaselessly engages his/her audience?

Carpe Diem,

Giovanni
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sondance

Member
Thought I would chime in on the latter direction of this topic.

The former direction being IMO "musicians whose music you like and or respect so much you would call them a musical genius."

The latter direction seems to be exploring a more literal definiton. I suspect that intellectual genius and musical interest/talent lie on two different rungs of the human genome. Maybe there is a geneticist out there who can speak to that.

An irony in this discussion is that we can only suggest familiar names. Who knows how many musical geniuses there have been that would fit anyone's definiton (perhaps one of Corno's "classics") whose work never blessed the ears of anyone beyond their village or their home, whose hands were forced to guide the plow, or whose voice was forced to teach the child, to eat.

Kind of makes you wanna go hug a starving musician (or artist) doesn't it?
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giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Hi sondance,

You make some very salient points. History, i'm afraid, has always been the judge - always above and beyond our own control - no matter how much we jump up and down on the tables, kicking and screaming, throwing hissy fits and temper-tantrums about how unfair everything and life is. Yes, there is also one's personal will - one's own volition, which can play a very big part.

Yes, we should embrace our starving musicians and artists - we are often far and few between. I, for one, always strive to do the best I can without any expectation of being remembered in the future. Give it one's all and then some more and let History be the judge - be honest in one's dealings - and love while it is still possible to love. We owe our children nothing less!

Peace Be With You,

Giovanni
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acciaccatura

Guest
Well, what bothers me about the 'genius' concept is not so much the included, unquestionably great composers - including (and perhaps above all) Bach - but much rather how and where to draw the line. Your inquisitive suggestion,
When composers can be described in loving terms after their death then that can be used as a measure of their being a genius
does not have a premise I can agree with. Fame and mastery (maybe mastery is a more useful term though still subjective) are simply not the same thing. A genius can be perceived in any aspect of a personality - no one is complete, not even Bach. Was Bach a genius in his writing for the general population, as a street musician? Hardly, though he did write secular, even 'popular' music.

I think a genious needs to be evaluated in his core activities, the activities he does best. Sometimes a genius is recognized and popularized, sometimes not, and for me this brings genius into a class indistinguishable from intelligence, achievement, skill, etc. In science, revolutionary discovery is a part of genius - in music it is not. Perhaps genius is just an idea made up to simplify the way we look at history, or an easy way to dismiss the work of those who are more difficult to access.

To be able to compose music at all requires a certain level of intelligence - that is good enough for me. I will look at and listen to the music presented to me, and evaluate that for myself - I simply do not need a labeling of certain composers as 'genius' at the expense of 'lesser' composers. It is all a subjective consideration that prevents people from diving into the depths of musical composition.
 

giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Acciaccatura,

Might you be in possession of the Philosopher's Stone?
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You speak with a great conviction that can inform one that you have been studying and performing music for many years but in another thread, you shared that you have been playing piano only for a few years. I might full well be wrong in what you have shared in another thread and would be willing to retract my assumption forthwith. I admire your passionate elocution - my hope is that you base your missives not on feelings and emotions about this and that composer.

Cordially,

Giovanni
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acciaccatura

Guest
It would be awesome if, in posts dealing with on-topic issues, people would concentrate on subject matter and refrain from misrepresenting and psychoanalyzing other members. The result will likely be mudslinging and other unpleasantries that we do not need. Thanks.
 

giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Well, I seemed to have hit a nerve in someone's tooth
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I retract my *misrepresenting* and *psychoanalysing*.

Hope you feel better soon.

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Giovanni
 

Thomas Dressler

New member
I've always thought of a genius as someone who is able to do something creative, unusual, and meaningful (sometimes profoundly so) with the materials at hand. These materials could be the rules of Renaissance counterpoint as in the case of Palestrina, or the rules of Baroque harmony and counterpoint as in the case of JS Bach, or the accepted norms of "pop" music as in the Beatles--or simple paint and canvas or the words of a particular language. . .In other words, to me, an artistic genius is one who can take the same materials available to anyone else, along with their inherent limitations, and having a strong inner vision, they are able to manipulate these materials in a way that is unusually good at drawing people into their vision.

According to my own definition of a genius, they might or might no be recognized by the public at large, especially at first. In his lifetime, Bach was recognized by some as a truly great genius, but by others, no. Some of Brahms' greatest works, like the 4th Symphony and his German Requiem, were greatly disliked at first. Often people have personal agendas that prevent them from recognizing genius in work that does not conform to their particular agenda. It seems that sometimes at first truly creative works of genius are seen as a threat by other artists, or sometimes they're just ahead of their time and it takes the world in general some time to catch up to the artist's vision and technique.

I would pragmatically argue, however, that for a work to be categorized as a work of genius, it has to have inherent meaning and relevance to people, and perhaps it has to be recognized eventually. (In other words, does a tree falling in the forest when no one is around make a sound?) There are experimental pieces of art from, say, the 1960s that I wonder about--I wonder if they will ever make it past the "just plain weird" stage into the "wow, what a vision" stage. To me, a work of genius cannot be simply different, it has to be based on a strong, clear vision, and be produced in a disciplined way where the medium is manipulated with the INTENTION of communicating that vision. It takes intelligence to do this, but to me, intelligence is only one factor in works of genius.

Notice that I'm not talking about any person as a complete genius. This, I believe, does not exist. A person may create works of genius and be a complete failure in other parts of his/her life. As a matter of fact, Bach took GREAT exception to being called a "musikant" or in a way, "street musician." He not only was not one, did not want to be one, but became angry at being called one.

I very much enjoy reading biographies of artists we generally consider to be "great" or "geniuses," because their stories show that they were great in only parts of their lives, and were like the rest of us in others. Kind of makes the musician in me feel less weird!
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Thomas Dressler
 

giovannimusica

Commodore de Cavaille-Coll
Tom,

You took the words right out of my mouth
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You're a consummate spokesman for the art of music
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and I thank you for sharing some fascinating insights.

Peace Aplenty,

Giovanni
 

acciaccatura

Guest
Well, I seemed to have hit a nerve in someone's tooth
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Giovanni

Well, misrepresentation (or spreading lies, if you like) does not reside in the tooth. I would rather place it below the belt line. Together with the rest of your nonsense.
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