Digital Organ Choice

[FelixLowe]

I tried the combinations you said, but the result was quite different compared to a tuba or En-Chamade stop. The Trumpet with the vox humana and the gamba might have provided a buzz similar to the one of an en chamade trumpet, but still lacked all the other characteristics that make chamade stops unique.

As for the tuba, the combination sounded more like a softer version of the vox humana, with a rounder feeling, but nowere near to a Tuba.

Though, there might be other interesting combinations with the Quintaden or string/reed combinations, which i want to experiment.

I see. Thanks for the experiments and your information. But could the problem be that your Trumpet is not the kind of South German or French trumpet, that provides more body and is more substantial? Of course there would have to be differences. The thing is when combinations like these and other formulas are used, can they be justified to fake a Tuba or a Chamade to the degree that they might be used for such purpose, when your instrument doesn't have one of these specialty reeds?

Also, if the first combination you mentioned lacks substance, you might need to use the Rohrflote 8' to fill in to create the body of a Chamade.

But if your Great Principal is powerful enough, how about combining it with the Trumpet and Vox Humana? It may also give a Chamade substitute.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Nick ! I agree here with Felix. The great principal8' (or Montre 8' - a bit different the unique Italian principale 8') is a very important stop and indeed it depends how "strong" it is in a given organ and how noticeable is it's first unique attack when play. Also vox humana is thin by nature but very noticeable due to it's high freq. Adding these two stops to your trompete you can end up with a great Chamade substitute.
Cheers
Panos

 

[FelixLowe]

Hi Nick ! I agree here with Felix. The great principal8' (or Montre 8' - a bit different the unique Italian principale 8') is a very important stop and indeed it depends how "strong" it is in a given organ and how noticeable is it's first unique attack when play. Also vox humana is thin by nature but very noticeable due to it's high freq. Adding these two stops to your trompete you can end up with a great Chamade substitute.
Cheers
Panos

What I guess is that if a Montre 8' is used together with a South German Trumpet or a French Trumpet, and a Vox Humana 8' is that a close equivalent of Tuba Mirabilis is produced. This is because the Montre is said to be likened to a flute only. To create the brighter Festival Trumpet (which is only slightly brighter), the Gamba 8' should be added. Better still, the ordinary German Principal 8' on the great is needed in lieu of the Montre and the Gamba.

But I am not so sure about creating the exact or very close equivalent of a Spanish Trumpet. I would guess that perhaps an extra stop, the Oboe 8', needs to be added to the above formula. This is to reinforce the intensity of the reedy quality.

 

[FelixLowe]

But according to Nick earlier, his Content Great Principal 8' is already quite horn-like in quality. So I guess, if there were a Gamba on his Great, and a South German Trumpet, then the Festival Trumpet can be created, even without the Vox Humana, I guess.

 

[Clarion]

But according to Nick earlier, his Content Great Principal 8' is already quite horn-like in quality. . . .

A horny Diapason on the GT sounds like a rather weird unappealing construct.

Seems to me, that:

1. Horny Diapasons should be confined to the Swell;

2. Wide, breathy large-scale Open Diapasons should always be available on the GT!! The more, the merrier. A mere five Diapasons on the GT would tend to address that kind of voicing; and

3. Singing Diapasons on the CH;

IMO, are the simplest of considerations for an instrument of merit.

 

[Contratrombone64]

Still trying to get my head around a horny diapason ...

 

[FelixLowe]

I have no idea. I haven't heard a Content Great Open Diapason on the Great playing alone. And I am not sure if Nick described it correctly. Most Diapasons on of German-type organs contain stringy qualities on the Great. It is only the old English organs that have that horn-like quality.

The Swell Diapason is normally a Geigenprincipal, which is like a string to me -- a kind of loud Gamba.

Someone from Australia would be most familiar with old English organs that have some qualities somewhere between a string and a horn. But when we describe it as a horn-like, it is not the kind of reediness you would expect from an edgy, reedy Trumpet. It is perhaps a kind of animal horn quality like when you blow an ox horn or ramshorn.

 

[Ntalikeris666]

Oh, darn words!

What i mean with a horn-y diapason i mean one, which has a wider sound, not too attacky, with quite deep bass notes and strong higher ones.

To Clarion,
I would prefer not to start the 'organ wars' in here, since you very well know, that from your side always phoenix is the best and all the other ones suck, and from mine, short of the oposite, (not sayin' that phoenix is bad) but please dont try to impose your opinion here, which is of subject right now.

 

[FelixLowe]

Certainly, wars are for the war-like. The truth is in my opinion, the most standard (or neutral) European church organ voicing recalling the old times is Ahlborn Galanti, I think.

But to me I want to state my preferences:

1) Content Mondri Classics (Danish style) or Johannus Sweelinck (Dutch style); perhaps Allen's Arp Schnitger. But so far we've seen no sign that the manufacturing of Allen's Arp Schnitger is ready.
2) Father Willis (maybe Phoenix's Baroque organ)
3) Aeolian Skinner (Allen's American Classics) or Ahlborn (Austrian Egedecker's style) or Hoffricter.

There are some succinct small stoplists I have come across in the past that are quite impressive: Ahlborn 201 module and Mondri Classics 1627. I believe they are better stop lists if you prefer a small instrument to use at home. Of course both lists can be improved upon to make them even better.

I prefer Content's Mondri Classics mainly because of its secular voicing -- somewhere between a church organ and a concert instrument. And the voicing recalls the civility of European society (But I don't mean the original Calvinists who were tearing down organs in the Netherlands or Switzerland).

But it is no surprise that Clarion would support a British brand because Canadians are a kind of British. But to be honest, the Phoenix brand is not bad. But I still have some doubts about its sound channeling. Have you seen those giant speakers of Phoenix? Look quite frightening. I hope they have some high-quality amplification and speaker systems for home use. One can never trust distortion-free sound replication by routing all stops to about six or seven speakers. Twenty to 30 smaller speakers are the way to go.

In fact, recently Allen has come up with a new sound channeling method, also. I believe either Content or Allen has the most rational sound channeling method to date.

 

[GlionnaMansell]

Digital Pipe Organ

Well, I cannot resist entering the fray here. Perhaps you might consider investigating the work that Allen Organ Company has done. You can start by visiting my own site at www.glionnamansell.com or going directly to Allen organ company from my site. There is a button there to whisk you away to Macungie, Pennsylvania.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi guys !
Nobody wants a Great Organ War !!!!!
As you already know this thread opened by Ayo has gone long way deep inside the digital organ world, providing visitors and members of this forum the best information there is, we're close to 16.300 reads, 29 pages and 5 stars !!!

Yesterday I managed at last to get my Spanish organ for jOrgan 3.8.2 to talk to me.
This thing wanted to be constructed from the beginning...
Worth the wait.
The stop sounds are not synthesized, are real samples Herrero took from original Spanish pipes. There is a pdf with a translation glossary of spanish pipe names ect to english - very helpful.
There is the famous Spanish trumpet and the oboe, along with the other not so famous Spanish reed stops The violon 8' is weaker than a real German full body principal 8'

So my proposal is that even you play hardware digital organs get this VPO and test it's stop sounds with the ones you got in your organs and try by ear some combinations of your available stops 'till you get closer to the original.

Cheers
Panos

 

[FelixLowe]

I've just reviewed a few songs from Content's D5000/ D6000. Last night I reviewed Mansell's site and heard a few lectures on Quantum series. Mansell's site clearly features much clearer recordings from Allen's manufacturer. I suggest Allen USA redo the recordings placed on the "Listen to Music" function. There is muffled tenor and even the presence of noise in certain files. This reflects badly on the quality of its organs.

All I can say is that Content represents a tonal tradition that Allen does not yet have. I suspect when Allen has completed the Arp Schnitger sample, there will be a similar tradition to compare.

But last night, after hearing some exclusive music played on Mansell's site, I am quite amazed by the quality and clarity of Allen Schlicker sample, which is clearly the all too familiar sounds of J S Bach's music. Allen's Schlicker is a good digital Silbermann substitute.

Undoubtedly the Allen soundclips have not changed my long-held position on Content.

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Allen organs are great. One of a kind. As are Content. Hard to choose indeed.
I think we all want some great JSBach stops at our hands at all times. A good Silbermann sustitute, but what about a Herbst or Trost one ? It is known that Bach liked the Thuringian organs most....

 

[FelixLowe]

Allen organs are great. One of a kind. As are Content. Hard to choose indeed.
I think we all want some great JSBach stops at our hands at all times. A good Silbermann sustitute, but what about a Herbst or Trost one ? It is known that Bach liked the Thuringian organs most....

Trost stops are similar to Arp Schnitger ones. The world is waiting for Allen to finish the samples on Arp Schnitger. I would like to hear what it is like, although I already know what Arp Schnitger is like. Most importantly we know Arp Schnitger liked to put in his own Mixtures when upgrading or renovating organs. We want to hear what Allen has come up with that respect.

In my opinion, the Arp Schnitger stops are also like the Content stops, except the Mixtures. Also, the Thuringian organs or the Trost organs would seldom have stops on the Oktave 1' or Sifflote 1'. They perhaps also didn't have 1 1/3' pitches. Trost's Trompete 8' is more sonorous than the Danish style ones.

 

[Clarion]

Oh, darn words!

What i mean with a horn-y diapason i mean one, which has a wider sound, not too attacky, with quite deep bass notes and strong higher ones.

Actually . . . quite the opposite! A horny diapason would typically be of rather narrow scale, or perhaps even conical; producing a somewhat nasal tone by emphasizing the lower harmonics, i.e. somewhere between a diapason and an oboe; and perhaps similar to a stop I've never heard, named Horn Diapason.

A horny diapason is an acquired taste, which with appropriate implementation, tends to grow on you. Just because it's called a diapason, doesn't mean that you can use it in the same way as other diapasons. It really doesn't blend well as a diapason chorus stop, but is more suited as a rather attractive solo stop, either alone, or in combination with other SW 8' stops.

To Clarion,
I would prefer not to start the 'organ wars' in here . .

Then don't! That's your option. :devil:

, since you very well know, that from your side always phoenix is the best

From my perspective, Phoenix represents the absolute very best amongst today's digital organs; and after extensive research and consideration, I plunked down a substantial pile of $$$ to have one of these magnificent instruments placed in my home. And two years after installation of my Phoenix, the correctness of that decision is re-affirmed on a daily basis.

and all the other ones suck, and from mine, short of the oposite, (not sayin' that phoenix is bad) but please dont try to impose your opinion here, which is of subject right now.

I wouldn't necessarily say that all the other ones suck. Many do suck, but some acquit themselves in a rather impressive manner . . . . While not up to Phoenix standards . . . they manage to do a reasonably acceptable job. And if there were options out there that were better than Phoenix, then obviously, that's what I would have bought.

As for your edict regarding "organ wars'; that's just a tad juvenile. This is a public forum where hopefully, varying opinions will be vigorously debated; often containing extraordinary expressions of passion with regard to certain instruments. And that's the kind of instrument that would attract my attention! Then there are all the rest . . . who have a spectacularly ho hum nothing instrument with nothing enthusiastic to say about their instruments.

When I set out to purchase a new organ, unlike every other organ on the market, Phoenix owners were then only ones shouting the wonders of their instrument. That's the kind of organ I wanted to buy; and that's the kind of organ I bought!! :banana:

And that's what initially attracted me to Phoenix.

 

[FelixLowe]

I don't know what's wrong with Content that it doesn't always want to demonstrate its full organ on those demo discs. There are only a few pieces that allow one to appreciate the clarity and power of the instruments, for example, on the demo disc on their D5000/D6000, Kellner's Preludium in C and Bach's BWV 537 are the typical example. Also the florid passages ending Pachelbel's Partita on Was Gott tut, dass ist wohlgetan is another example that demonstrates the exceptionally Dutch full organ, probably because of the whistle-like Octave 2' drawn on the Great.

But the reeds on the D4330 produce very French quality, for example, the Fest-Fanfare in D-Dur by Damjakob. Also in Offertoire pour les Grands Jeux by Couperin, the effects are very French.

It seems to me that Content is the type of organ that doesn't just play organ music but it can bring alive authentic historical flavours and characters of the pieces.

The recordings on the Mondri Classics are, however, a little bit lacklustre. And I suggest Content redo their recordings. Now, one problem could be that the Mondri Classics, even the bigger one 1627, in fact lacks essential stops. The recordings lack stereophonic quality and there is too much echo, too. The recordings on the D5000/D6000 and the D4330 demo discs are slightly better in terms of the echo problem. Although Content's leaflet says their one-liner philosophy for Mondri Classics is their inclusion of most important stops, who is to say that the Cymbal II is not essential? In fact the 1627 has only one Mixture stop, Mixture IV. And as a matter of fact, if they already put in the Quint 1 1/3' and the Flageolet 1' on the Swell, then if they cannot increase the number of stop for the model, the Mixture should be the Cymbel II (or better still a Cymbel III if they can make one) on the Great to take the place of Mixture IV. Mixture IV is simply drowned in a myriad of mutations at full organ. Only the Cymbel II can add brightness when the Quint 1 1/3' and the Flageolet 1' are drawn.

Better still, if they can just add the Cymbal II (tuned louder) to the Great and keep the Mixture IV, that would make it an excellent model.

Also, if they changed the Mixture IV to Cymbal II or III, then the Flageolet 1' would be better made to sound Oktave 1', while the 1 1/3' can keep being a Quintflote.

 

[FelixLowe]

A little secret to share: the smallest complete stoplist can be like the following for a digital instrument. I can almost guarantee for you that this will sound really good and can be used versatilely for both French and German repertoire, and British, too, of course. Strictly speaking for a small space, you only need these 28 stops. But they must be arranged in this way to maximise the necessary stylistic combinations.

Manual I:
Principal 8'
Octave 4'
Nasard 2 2/3'
Octave 2'
Sesquialtera II
Mixture IV
Trumpet 8'

Manual II:
Quintaten 16'
Gedackt 8'
Voix Celeste II
Rohrflote 4'
Waldflote 2'
Conical Flute 2'
Larigot 1 1/3'
Sifflote 1'
Fourniture IV
Cornet V
Cymbel II
Fagotto 16'
Hautbois 8'
Cromorne 8'
Clairon 4'

Pedal:
Subbass 16'
Octave 8'
Bourdon 8'
Choralbass 4'
Posaune 16'
Trumpet 8'

 

[FelixLowe]

Recently, I reviewed a series of music on Mansell's website on Allen organs. It seems that the organ school that most impresses me is their Schlicker sampling. As I've written before, it is probably Allen's best apart from their American Classics, the Aeolian Skinner tradition that has bombarded much of the English-speaking world to date.

However, one school that I have spotted available from Allen, which they have not substantially advertised is their Chapel series, which I've found sound pretty rude. Now, the unison pitches and mutation stops seem to sound like the Herz organ of Germany, of the Rennaisance era. But Herz organs had far greater chiffs than Allen's Chapel, and the former's chiff was in a greater variety as well. And they carry special tone colours of somewhat between German and Italian schools, I believe. While that is all right, the Mixtures of the Chapel series leave much to be desired. They are not Italian nor German, and they sound too electronic. They sound flat and uncultivated. Maybe that's where the problem lies. It seems that the Mixture stops can affect the tonal quality of the entire organ. I guess they can be sold for more if they care to take the steps to change the Mixture samples.

Of course, so far the most civil and polite voicing seems to be Content organ.

 

[FelixLowe]

I wonder if you have seen the German organ tour 2008 video clip, that brings viewers to hear and see some famous organs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqLPmhHV9nE.

 

[FelixLowe]

Christ is Made the Sure Foundation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tLn5tDbTSw&feature=related. You can appreciate the manual 16' tones, particularly the Bombarde 16' and the Fagotto 16' rumbling. It seems that this performance demonstrates better sound of their Conacher organ than their previous recordings on the same organ. Previous recordings were jarring once the Mixtures were drawn. So, I am not sure if the organ had been tuned prior to this recording. It does seem like that to me.