very intense music from Liverpool Cathedral....

[smilingvox]

I stumbled upon this clip on youtube.

Type "organ toccata 7 liverpool cathedral organ" in the search box.

This could cause speaker damage, so be careful. The 64' Resultant was used in this piece. The Trompette Militaire is awesome in this.

ps: cathedrsl is typewriter language for cathedral

 

[GoneBaroque]

Thank you sv. Not only intense but I found it quite attractive. It must be an experience to hear the 64' Resultant in the Cathedral. You sent me to my archives to find a two disk LP album which was recorded in 1979 with Noel Rawsthorne at Liverpool playing Bach and Franck. The 64 is of course used. The recording is described as having an Ultra-Wide Dynamic Range which i surely has. Each side of the two disks contains less that 15 minutes of music. short value but spectacular sound through my JBLs. And the video you sent sounded great on my headphones. I kept the volume down to compensate for the mating call of the dragons in the crypt. I downloaded the score and see it was written by Matt Milne.

And my computer is not very good at spelling either.

 

[Corno Dolce]

I'm afraid that the recorded instrument is not the Liverpool Anglican Cathedral by Willis - I perceive the Hammerwood Park electrobeast with 64' and 128' reed stops - There is so much "audio compression" so readily apparent. The 64' resultant on the Willis is more like a "rolling purr".

But the improv is nice although...

 

[smilingvox]

Thanks for the tip, Admiral (ouch).
Come to think of it. The 64' sounded more like the electronic 64' Bombarde Basse at Washington Cathedral, than would be produced by two flues at 32' and 21 1/3'. Sometimes excitement has a way of distorting one's judgement. Plus, in the beginning, you hear what sounds like the Positive. The Willis doesn't have any chiff that I know of.

Next time I email Ian Tracey, I'll see what he thinks of the clip. After playing at LivCath for over 20 years, he should be able to point out a lot of differences.

 

[Corno Dolce]

The acoustic at LivCath is just so different than any other - probably owing to the Sandstone from which it is built.

 

[pcnd5584]

I'm afraid that the recorded instrument is not the Liverpool Anglican Cathedral by Willis ... The 64' resultant on the Willis is more like a "rolling purr".

...

Not in the building. The 'rolling purr' is produced by one of ther three 32ft. flues - the best of these, to my ears, is the Contra Violone (Metal). The Resultant Bass (64ft.) is a distinctly odd sound, from the Central Space. One can feel the strong vibrations, but the effect (used underneath the most etherial of the three undulating ranks which this organ possesses) was actually not particularly pleasant. It is, after all, an acoustic stop - hence the name.

 

[pcnd5584]

Thanks for the tip, Admiral (ouch).
Come to think of it. The 64' sounded more like the electronic 64' Bombarde Basse at Washington Cathedral, than would be produced by two flues at 32' and 21 1/3'. Sometimes excitement has a way of distorting one's judgement. Plus, in the beginning, you hear what sounds like the Positive. The Willis doesn't have any chiff that I know of.

Yes, it does. This Positif section was added around 1960, by Willis:

	Gedact	8
	Spitz Principal	4
	Nasat	2 2/3
	Coppel	2
	Terz	1 3/5
	Spitzflote	1
	Cymbel	III	29.33.36

It replaced an unenclosed family of Dulcianas - which were (arguably) somewhat less useful on this instrument.

 

[pcnd5584]

The acoustic at LivCath is just so different than any other - probably owing to the Sandstone from which it is built.

I think that you are correct. Due to the porous nature of the sandstone, this building is surprisingly lacking in resonance, considering its great size. Gloucester Cathedral (at eight seconds, on releasing a chord played on the tutti) is infinitely superior for organ and choral sound.

 

[Krummhorn]

ps: cathedrsl is typewriter language for cathedral

We corrected the inadvertent typo ... my keyboard does the same thing at times, too. :

I'm afraid that the recorded instrument is not the Liverpool Anglican Cathedral by Willis - I perceive the Hammerwood Park electrobeast with 64' and 128' reed stops - There is so much "audio compression" so readily apparent. The 64' resultant on the Willis is more like a "rolling purr".

Correct ... the video title reads: The 7th organ toccata. Inspired by the beautiful organ at the Liverpool Anglican Cathedral. (emphasis mine)

But the improv is nice although...

Indeed it is ... would be nice to hear this actually played on the Willis itself or even with it played on the Wimborne Minster organ ...
(nice to see you here again, pcnd

 

[Dorsetmike]

Indeed it is ... would be nice to hear this actually played on the Willis itself or even with it played on the Wimborne Minster organ ...

Lars, the lady in the shop at Wimborne may not appreciate it

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi pcnd - Thanks for your guidance in re to Liverpool.

 

[Krummhorn]

Lars, the lady in the shop at Wimborne may not appreciate it

Wonder if she is still there? I must say, it was a "first" for me - maybe she was RC ... :lol:

 

[smilingvox]

Yes, it does. This Positif section was added around 1960, by Willis:

	Gedact	8
	Spitz Principal	4
	Nasat	2 2/3
	Coppel	2
	Terz	1 3/5
	Spitzflote	1
	Cymbel	III	29.33.36

It replaced an unenclosed family of Dulcianas - which were (arguably) somewhat less useful on this instrument.

I know about the Positif. In fact, imo, it fits very nicely with the rest of the instrument. I had mentioned that there was no chiff that I was aware of.

I think what happened between '58 and '60 was that, by then, the soft Choir stops, replaced by the Positif, were no longer able to carry through the now much enlarged space. The Positif was voiced brighter and is higher-pitched, so it's more audible even from far away.

A friend of mine remarked that, in such a large building, the Salicionals would fill the bill the Dulcianas would normally fill.

 

[pcnd5584]

Hi pcnd - Thanks for your guidance in re to Liverpool.

You are welcome.

Sorry - I have only just seen your post....

 

[pcnd5584]

I know about the Positif. In fact, imo, it fits very nicely with the rest of the instrument. I had mentioned that there was no chiff that I was aware of.

I know - but as far as I can recall, the Positive Gedact does have a certain amount of 'chiff' in the transient attack of its speech.

I think what happened between '58 and '60 was that, by then, the soft Choir stops, replaced by the Positif, were no longer able to carry through the now much enlarged space. The Positif was voiced brighter and is higher-pitched, so it's more audible even from far away.

I think that it was more a case of bending to the fashion of the times. Many organs in the UK sprouted Positive departments at this time - some more successful than others. Having heard a variety of very quiet string ranks used - including some under expression - it is interesting how well these stops project down the length of the building.

 

[Corno Dolce]

You are welcome.

Sorry - I have only just seen your post....

Hey guy,

No probs:tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

 

[smilingvox]

Going back to the swapping out the dulcianas in favour of the Positif...

I think that it was more a case of bending to the fashion of the times. Many organs in the UK sprouted Positive departments at this time - some more successful than others.

Good point, pc. LivAng's example being one of the most successful. America's biggest reason for doing this, is just getting on the Neo-Baroque bandwagon (no pun here) and getting all those high pitches. UK's reason? ... (like to know)

 

[pcnd5584]

Wonder if she is still there? I must say, it was a "first" for me - maybe she was RC ... :lol:

To be fair to her, the building is used much of the time for services, rehearsals and concerts. She and other voluntary helpers (and staff), have to do their jobs, often in trying conditions. If the organ is being played loudly, it is quite difficult to carry out a conversation in any part of the building.

 

[pcnd5584]

Going back to the swapping out the dulcianas in favour of the Positif...



Good point, pc. LivAng's example being one of the most successful. America's biggest reason for doing this, is just getting on the Neo-Baroque bandwagon (no pun here) and getting all those high pitches. UK's reason? ... (like to know)

Well, probably in part as you state above. However, it was also a reaction (partly engendered by the advent of the organ in the RFH) against the opaque tubbiness of many Edwardian organs. (If you are not sure what they sound like, try searching on YouTube for soundclips from Saint Mary, Redcliffe, Bristol, Crediton Parish Church, Chartehouse School Chapel, Repton School Chapel - or Saint Chad's, Headingley). I am fairly sure that five minutes in the company of a pair of Arthur Harrison Trombe, a heavily-blown Open Wood and a fearsome 'Harmonics' (17-19-flat 21-22) will shed some light on the matter. Not that all English organs were like this; for example, the Walker instrument at Bristol Cathedral (1907) is a real aristocrat, beautifully voiced and thoroughly musical.

I think that in the UK in the 1960s-70s, there were a number of organists and organ builders (often in key positions) who felt that the time had come to 'let the daylight' into the British organ. As far back as 1948 (and even before this, at Buckfast Abbey), Ralph Downes (at the time Organist at Brompton Oratory) was working on the scheme for a new concert hall organ in London. This was to be that at the RFH. Having returned from Princeton, NJ, a few years previously, Downes, impressed by the work of G. Donald Harrison, had become filled with an almost missionary zeal, and set about to turn the English organ establishment on its head. When it was opened, the new H&H organ at the RFH proved to be even more shocking than its planning had led the musical cognoscenti to believe. However, whilst not spawning any direct copies, it was the progenitor for the classical revival of the British organ - which, initially, had to be dragged out from amongst its leathered diapasons and thundering Ophicleides kicking and screaming.

As with many such reactions, views (and instruments) became polarised; the initial response was, with hindsight, an over-reaction. This, in turn, resuled in some frankly hideous instruments, with barely more than one or two slender foundation stops amongst them, but which almost always culminated in multiple ranks of mixtures, usually pitched at levels high enough to drive the local canine population to howling distracion.

The middle ground, when it came, was far more satisfying and included such instruments as that at Coventry Cathedral (perhaps somewhat ironically, by H&H, in 1962, who by this time, had changed their tonal ethos to something rather more musically versatile) and York Minster (JW Walker, 1960).

In fact, it was this latter firm who, in several cases, showed arguably the most sensible approach. They became adept at producing thoroughly musical and most useful Positive divisions, of which those at the Metropolitan Cathedral of Christ the King, Liverpool and Wimborne Minster are perhaps the most successful examples - in fact, rather better than that at Liverpool Anglican Cathedral, which, considering the size of the rest of the instrument, is a meagre little section, seemingly almost grudgingly included as a small acknowledgement of the Classical revival.

In fact, the middle ground could be said to be still in the process of being established. It took several years before the initial reaction became more tempered. Firms such as Grant, Degens and Rippin (subsequently Bradbeer) were building or re-building instruments such as those at Saint John's, Boscombe (Dorset) and New College Chapel, Oxford. These instruments were often termed 'brutalist' - perhaps in much the same way as that at Clare College, Cambridge (von Beckerath, 1971). In fact, this latter instrument replaced a vintage Harrison of 1911.

Most of the larger firms produced some essays in the Classical style: for example, Harrisons (Wells Cathedral, 1974; Ely Cathedral, 1976), Hill, Norman & Beard (Gloucester Cathedral, 1971), Walker (Blackburn Cathedral, 1967; Paisley Abbey, 1968), Rushworth & Dreaper (Guildford Cathedral, 1961-62; Chester Cathedral, 1969-70). Mander installed a Positive in all but name in the North Choir case, at Saint Paul's Cathedral, London (1974-77). However, all were in reality eclectic instruments; all retained much of their former Romantic character, the new voices often sitting uneasily in juxtaposition with the older ranks.

However, there were still some isolated examples which clung to a more Romantic tradition; at Peterborough Cathedral in 1980-81, Harrisons showed commendable restraint when rebuilding the large four-clavier Hill organ. Again, at Bristol Cathedral in 1989-90, Mander rebuilt the vintage Walker organ in an entirely sympathetic and conservative manner. The pendulum was swinging more gently now, with a number of other important instruments showing certain leanings towards the Romantic organ - or, perhaps, post-Romantic might be more accurate. This manifested itself in such things as a greater percentage of foundation stops, several new high-pressure reeds and many lower-pitched compound stops.

This latter point is an interesting one. If one examines stop-lists of British organs over the last five decades, mixtures appear to be getting lower in pitch. In the 1960s, it was common to see stops labelled 'Fourniture (19-22-26-29)', 'Scharf (22-26-29-33)' and even 'Cymbale (29-33-36)'. Now, many organs have been shorn of much of this upperwork - or else it has been re-cast, commencing at somewat lower pitches. Carlisle Cathedral, Exeter Cathedral, Lichfield Cathedral and Saint Patrick's Cathedral, Dublin are but four examples. In the cases of Carilsle and Dublin, two Positive divisions (both, as it happens, by JW Walker) have had their high-pitched Cymbale mixtures re-cast. At Exeter Cathedral, the Cimbel (26-29-33) was removed entirely and a Clarinet substituted. Given that this department also had its 1ft. Twenty Second re-pitched as a fairly pointless Larigot, much of the sparkle of this division has now gone. At Lichfield, the situation was somewhat more complicated. Here there was a largely unspoiled Hill organ (1884/1908), which, in 1974 had been given a Classical 'make-over'. Fortunately, the 'Hill' choruses were so good that the Pedal, Great and Swell organs escaped largely unscathed. However, the Choir Organ was subjected to the indignity of being turned into a Positive Organ (again, in all but name). In addition to a Gedeckt, a Spitz Principal and a Recorder, there were three mutations and a Cymbale (29-33-36). At the most recent restoration (2000), Harrison & Harrison re-instated two ranks (albeit with new pipes), revoiced five others and replaced the Cymbale with a somewhat lower-pitched compound stop.

A number of new or drastically rebuilt cathedral organs over the last ten years have shown a more Romantic trend in both the stop-lists and the treatment of the voicing. However, in some cases, the results are less than satisfying. Whilst there are arguably less 'niche' instruments (or, if you prefer, those designed after a single style), there are a number of examples which show eclectic stop-lists. The aim is, presumably, to make these organs as versatile as possible. The British cathedral organ is of necessity called upon to do many things: accompany choirs, lead congregational singing, serve as a vehicle for solo recitals, even play with orchestras and other instrumental ensembles. It is perhaps foolhardy to attempt, within a single instrument, to meet each of these requirements with complete success. This can (and has, in a few cases) led to somewhat bland results. At least three new large organs built within the last few years have been described as 'bland', 'dull' and 'inadequate', by a number of those who have heard or played them. Whilst consoles, actions and the physical parts of the instruments are, in most cases, well-constructed, it is in the key area of voicing where the British organ could be said, once again, to be losing its way. Perhaps in an effort to avoid the mistakes and extremes of past decades, several builders seem lately to favour a rather middle-of-the-road approach, in which there are no really colourful ranks - or even ensembles; rather, everything is homogenous and rather inoffensive. The inescapable corollary is that such instruments are also flavourless and uninspiring.

Yet there are also bright stars on the horizon. The new organ in Keble College Chapel (Tickell, 2011) sounds stunning. On paper, it is difficult to label this instrument as belonging to any particular style; however, it is intrinsically 'English' - in the best sense, with warm, yet lively choruses, good foundation work and a wealth of colourful stops. In addition to a fourth clavier, on which is situated a solo reed (Posaune) and a Cornet V, there is an enclosed Solo-Choir Organ, which possesses three quiet orchestral reeds. The tutti is both inspiring and majestic.

Where the British organ will go from here is purely a matter of conjecture. One thing is sure: if more instruments such as that at Keble are built, by the best of our craftsmen, we shall be the richer for it.

 

[Corno Dolce]

"Pitched high enough to drive the local canine population to howling distraction"...

Priceless :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:


Oh how many "orgelbewegung" instruments or divisions or pipe ranks that have been grafted onto existing instruments...I too howl because my ears are being punctured by all those "Schreiwerk"...:shake::shake::shake::shake::shake::shake::shake::shake::shake::shake::shake::shake::shake: