The future of classical music

tgreen

New member
Broad I know... but i thought it would be good to get a discussion going on the future of classical music in all it's guises and what we think is in store?

I for one believe that the future is very bright indeed. I live in london and over the last few years I have felt a real change in attitudes towards classical/opera, particularly among the younger generation 18-35. I think accessibility has improved at the same time that people are looking for more 'earthly' and refined cultural experiences. New venues are opening across town, festivals are aplenty, and their is an intriguing live scene that combines classical music performers with dance music DJs - One of the pioneers is the grandson of Prokofiev!! - not everyones cup of tea I know but I think it's an absolutely fantastic thing to be happening and vital to the ongoing development of the genre.

I could go on but what does everyone else think?
 

some guy

New member
I think that the word "classical" would have to be defined satisfactorily before there could be any discussion of "its" future. (I would predict that without a satisfactory definition, the future of this thread will be that it consists of fuzzy and contradictory claims full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.)

But since I'm first, and writing this will keep me from my real work (!), I'll attempt to make some sense of the word "classical." It is first of all a term that has been used to describe the various musics of about the past eight hundred years or so. (I don't think we need to fash ourselves about the the term's use to identify a period--nobody goes into the classical section of a music store expecting to find only Mozart, Haydn, Gluck, and Beethoven.) It's not so much its broadness that's an issue, though it is certainly broad, its the variety and complexity of the items within its scope.

Second, it's a term that is often used as if it were narrow. That is, as if "classical" identified a certain sound or style. I suspect that tgreen may be using it this way, as s/he has called it a genre. That's not technically wrong, but it suggests that classical pieces have something in common stylistically. As if "classical" were equivalent, as a term, to "rock" or "jazz" or "country western"--or even as if it were equivalent to "metal" or "hip hop." Since its historical range (800 years) is so great, it will contain a greater stylistic variety than a term that covers only 80 years, or 8.

So how is it possible for a term to include Gregorian chant and Annie Gosfield? I think because it identifies an attitude, an alignment with the materials that respects them for themselves regardless of (or at least in addition to) the effects they can create. Popular music, broadly speaking (!), views the materials as merely tools to create the effect (the effect being to galvanize the muscles near as I can figure!). Classical music views the materials as things valuable in and of themselves and so creates an often bewildering plethora of effects. (There is more purely musical variety in five minutes of John Zorn, for instance, than in all of rap. That is not to denigrate rap, by any means, just to point out a difference. Rap's not going for variety, Zorn is.)

But Michael, you'll say (if you remember my real name, anyway), isn't John Zorn a jazz artist? Yes. That's why I used him. His music confuses record store managers. You can find his albums in classical, in jazz, and in rock. Think of all the arguments you've ever heard about whether classical is better than pop. The pop music that will be put forward in those discussions will share some of the qualities that classical pieces share, will contain moments where the pitches, harmonies, timbre, rhythms, combinations of instruments seem to have an importance beyond and above making people tap their feet or bob their heads. (Not, I hasten to add, that tapping and bobbing are bad things! They're just not the only things. When they're treated as if they were, however, you have pop music.)

So have I just worn you all out? Or confused things before the discussion can even begin? Oh, well. You are all free of course to continue using "classical" as if it defined a style, as if it identified a music that's in the past, and talk about the future of performance, if you like. (Which is what this thread could easily turn into: how likely is it that the music of Brahms and Mozart will continue to be played in 3008?) Or we can talk about new classical music. About laptop ensembles, live electronics, new instrument techniques as well as new intruments, about electroacoustics. (Problem there of course is that most people who attend symphony concerts--and who buy classical CDs--is that the classical musics of 1988 or 68 or even 38, are still pretty much terra incognito. The arguments among many classical listeners are still about tonality/atonality (an argument that was really over by 1936), or consonance/dissonance. So I wonder how much we will be able to talk about the future of classical music if we don't even know much about its last fifty or a hundred years?

(Hey, I'm just sayin'.)
 

rojo

(Ret)
^^ :clap:

Hmm. What if there was a section in the music stores labeled 'composers' instead of 'classical'? :crazy:

That's the trouble with us humans; we always need to categorize. :grin:

*pictures music store clerk with Zorn album, putting it here, then moving it there, then moving it back, then...*

tgreen, I do think accessibility will indeed further the proliferation of, erm, whatever we're calling it. :grin:

What about just calling music by it's period, or era? We sometimes say period pieces, and we say the impressionist era, etc.... Of course then I don't know what to label today's compositions as. :confused: I really don't know what the solution is.
 

Corno Dolce

Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hi some guy,

Thanx for some erudite thoughts on this sometimes vexatious topic. What, may I most humbly ask, would be your suggestion on how to properly define *classical music*? Since you brought it up methinks you might have a creative suggestion.

Respectfully yours,

CD :):):):):):):)
 

some guy

New member
tgreen, I do think accessibility will indeed further the proliferation of, erm, whatever we're calling it. :grin:

rojo, I probably don't need to say this, but I will anyway: laughing outloud. (In fact, I've got a little cough now from the laughing!)

rojo and corno, I think we're probably stuck with "classical." I think we're probably stuck with the notion that "classical identifies a particular sound" and with "classical is of the past."

I've opted for making long, tendentious explanations of how to use the phrase "classical music"--to use it not as a description of the musics but as an indication of an attitude towards the materials. It's probably not a very good way, but oh well! Think of it this way, when you want to identify a piece of poetry or of fiction as artistic, what do you call it? Literature. And everyone knows what you mean. Not that Sophocles' style is in any way similar to Gertrude Stein's, but that they both were trying to make art. (And no one thinks that literature is a thing of the past.)

The only musical term similar to "literature" is "classical." Too bad that "classical" has all sorts of baggage and contradictions that "literature" does not. But "oh, well." Maybe if we all keep saying "'classical' is to music what 'literature' is to writing," we'll be OK.

With that in mind, I'd say that the "literature" music of today is not some Who? form of pop with orchestral instruments or cross-over combinations of snippets of things from pop and snippets of things from nineteenth century romantic type classical music. There are things like that. I think their shelf life is pretty short, though. Not where I'd think the future is.

I think the future will rely more and more heavily on electricity, but that's only to say that classical music has been relying (for eighty or ninety years) more and more heavily on electricity. So it's no great stretch to think that that trend will continue. And I mean electricity not as it's used to reproduce music but as it's used to produce it. The first use of turntables as instruments, just by the way, (not as simply passive reproducers of music) was in 1930, in a concert organized by Paul Hindemith and Ernst Krenek. Cage used them fairly passively in several pieces--the turntables are just set going to play whatever records are at hand. And he used phono cartridges with foreign objects in them instead of styluses to amplify various little noises. Stockhausen's Hymnen is full of all sorts of scratching and hissing and pops and ticks from LPs. And then came Christian Marclay, who did/does everything imaginable with turntables, and quite a lot of unimaginable things, too. (This is all quite some time before rap or hip hop, though Christian does a lot of work in the present with DJs.)

And that's only one, small example of electricity used to produce music. Tape recorders, synthesizers, computers, circuitry, laptops, motors, speaker feedback--all sources of sound for composers. Oh, it's fun!!
 

rojo

(Ret)
Ooh, I like that term, 'music literature'. Or even 'art music' would be better than the term 'classical.'

I wonder, what would happen if we started using either of those terms; would it catch on? Have people tried?

*imagines it catching on* :up:
 

rojo

(Ret)
This thread has re-sparked my interest in current (non-pop, or art, or literature) music trends. So without further ado, I'm off to start a new thread. :grin:
 
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