Same old - same old

[Dorsetmike]

Just listened to the radio while having my tea, it happened top be "This Weeks Classic FM top 30" apart from a couple of recently composed works - I hesitate to call them music - everything else was just a new recording of works that have been recorded umpteen times already.

When - if ever - is somebody going to get round to recording works that have been ignored, probably because they are not the latest "must have" fashion.

Bach wrote over a thousand works, how many get recorded (apart from the big box sets) how many get regularly performed or broadcast, 10, 20, 50? Beethoven wrote quite a few piano sonatas, radio plays? Moonlight, first movement fairly often, the rest of it rarely, equally or maybe more rare the Pathetique; 9th symphony - done to death, so much so that I've come to hate it.

You would think British composers might get more play on UK radio, but apart from a few works, Vaughn Williams gets a few airings but only a few of his works, Tallis variations, Cello concerto being the usual offerings. John Stanley wrote 30 voluntaries, we only ever hear one, he also wrote 12 concertos, a number of trio sonatas, a couple of oratorios, I've yet to find recordings of half of them, most of the scores are Public Domain: his 300th anniversary was in 2012, no mention on either UK classical radio channel yet quite a few obscure European continental composers get remembered.

Some body somewhere should come up with a ruling that there can only be a percentage of the done to death top 300, 500 or so on any CD, DVD or radio programme.

Let's have some variety, air some of the long forgotten works.

I'd like to see classical radio stations feature say one or two less well known composers or works each day (or week) and ask for feedback, spread them out over different times of day to catch a wider audience.

As for stunts like Classic FMs top 300 annual fiasco, (listeners vote for favourite works) if the listeners never hear some of the great music out there how can they ever get out of the rut of the same 300 over and over again? I suppose it does save them having to maintain a larger library!

Maybe if all of us kept bothering local stations weekly we might get some response

 

[JHC]

I thought BBC 3 was the classical station or has it been dumbed down? also isn’t Classic FM a commercial station?
In NZ we have only one classical station it covers local concerts “live” in the evening and quite a bit of 21[SUP]st[/SUP] cent music plus some avant-garde programming also a little jazz, plus the normal program content you would expect, it has attempted to be more accessible to the non classical music fans in an effort to save the station (it is our only state funded station) so there is a small percentage of pop-rock whatever you want to call it.
Regarding the repeated playing of the old war horses yep we get that as well but if you are in listening mode it can be interesting to hear the different interpretations that conductors get so for me never boring. Lesser known composers generally wrote music that was not exactly memorable and much of today’s classical could be headed in the same direction but only time will tell.

 

[GavinJones]

I always think so, may own too like classical!

 

[JHC]

I always think so, may own too like classical!

What are you on about??

 

[some guy]

a couple of recently composed works - I hesitate to call them music

Names? We don't know what you're hesitating about without names.

 

[Dorsetmike]

Einaudi and Gorecki for starters, and a few others whose names I have not bothered to learn.

 

[some guy]

Einaudi and Gorecki for starters, and a few others whose names I have not bothered to learn.

OK.

Would you mind terribly continuing on and explaining why you hestitate calling these things music? (And even naming particular Gorecki pieces, since he has done different things, some twelve-tone, some neo-tonal.)

Not a big deal, Dorsetmike. But for someone like myself who enjoys all sorts of contemporary music and older modern musics, as well as all the older musics you enjoy, too, just by the way, it is tiresome to see anonymous slams of modern music. Be fair, it is tiresome to see specific names and pieces of modern music slammed, for that matter.

Sure, there will always be composers and pieces that certain people will dislike. And no one's immune to criticism. But there's intelligent, knowledgeable, informed criticism--which surely you are able to provide--and there is anonymouse slamming of all the various kinds of musics from the past hundred years, lumping everything all together as if it were all the same and all equally non-musical and all equally beneath contempt, which is tiresome.

 

[Dirigent]

I'll enter the fray! This isn't music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDxpa-XPMTo

I'll be generous and call it sound design. The "Helicopter Quartet" by Stockhausen is also NOT music; sure, instruments try to emulate the sounds of a helicopter but sound designers do that too. If you call any of that music you insult composers; I call my dog, "Fi-do" and this always has a pitch - BUT IT IS NOT MUSIC. I scream at the local skate-boarders who populate my street, "go away"; the last syllable goes upward AND HAS A TONE, but it is NOT MUSIC. My car breaks squeal occasionally - nope, that isn't music either. Even when I vomit I make a tonal noise. It isn't music. No doctor or nurse enters that profession because they want a musical experience! My son built retaining walls for me at my new home, striking rock with hammer and generating 'noise' and 'sound'; nope, not music either. Dear me, things are looking grim.... Oh, but wait, there's Beethoven!!!

You can find a tone here or there if you want to, but it is an intellectually and emotionally arid exercise looking for music, and naming it so, where there is none. Especially when there is so much of musical profundity to be found in the real musical repertoire.

 

[Dorsetmike]

Oxford dictionary definition of music

Vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion:

Not a lot of those elements present in any genre these days, except perhaps the emotion of disbelief that such collections of sounds is offered as music.

I also think that film music and video game music should not be classified as classical music, nor broadcast on Classicsal radio, it should have its own genre "Media accompaniment" maybe? The majority of it is meaningless without the film or video images.

 

[some guy]

I'll enter the fray! This isn't music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDxpa-XPMTo

I'll be generous and call it sound design.

Any reason for saying that it's not music?

The "Helicopter Quartet" by Stockhausen is also NOT music; sure, instruments try to emulate the sounds of a helicopter but sound designers do that too.

Nope, guess not. Another assertion. About another piece. At least you refer to specific pieces. That is an improvement over anonymous bashing. But without any rationale (and putting "not" in all caps is not a rationale), it's not all that much better.

And, just by the way, you reveal an interesting lack of knowledge about this piece. The instruments do not try to emulate the sounds of a helicopter in this piece. Why would they? You have the sounds of the helicopters themselves. (You do know that this piece involves actual helicopters, do you not?)

If you call any of that music you insult composers

And if you call any of it not (or NOT) music, then you insult a different group of composers.

I call my dog, "Fi-do" and this always has a pitch - BUT IT IS NOT MUSIC.

Not sure any more what your point is. None of the rest of your examples are of pieces by composers. I notice that more words have been put in all caps, though. Still not argument. Just the same assertion repeated over and over again. And why, by the way, are you screaming at people in a public place to go away? That's what a public place is, a place where the public can go. Freely.

[I}t is an intellectually and emotionally arid exercise looking for music, and naming it so, where there is none.

All that musical pleasure I've found at concerts of Stockhausen and others, all that musical pleasure I've found from my recording of Hymnen, for that matter, all of that certainly did not/does not seem intellectually and emotionally arid to me.

Seems quite rich and rewarding to me.

Especially when there is so much of musical profundity to be found in the real musical repertoire.

And real, too.

Let me add, too, that even though you don't name more than Beethoven for the "real musical repertoire," I think I can safely say that I enjoy the music of your "real" musical repertoire as much as I enjoy Stockhausen's Hymnen.

It is possible to enjoy more music than what you allow to be music.

 

[Dirigent]

In the first place, I don't have a dog or feral neighbours - I used these as an example of pitch-making noises which 'some people' could regard as music if it was, er, 'notated'. I was being ironic, though, about the vomiting and the pitch (pun) making noises there. All we need now is for somebody to, er, NOTATE it and you'll regard it as music. That seems to be your criteria.

Helicopters and helicopter-like sounds - the general cacophonic result is sound design and not music; unless, of course, you haven't been to the movies lately and experienced sound design. There's more 'music' in sound design than there is in your electronic noises. But, then, your noise is "notated" and that's the difference. (Slaps wrist)..I mean "composed".

Nobody is going to swallow this argument of yours; the people have and are voting with their feet and will continue to do so. You can argue till hell freezes over; the result will be the same.

And I feel for you, really I do. That you can find 'pleasure' in arid noise.... "I'd be equally as willing for a dentist to be drilling"...!! You need to get over yourself.

Why in the name of God would I want to listen to the Dona Nobis Pacem from the Bach B Minor Mass when I can listen to the whirring sounds emitted from 1950's oscilloscopes? It's a no-brainer. The oscilloscopes and buzzy electronic thingys will get me to the musical equivalent of paradise every time!!! Especially when they're, composed. Notated. And by clever individuals with an ear for transcendent and ambiguous tonalities and ingenius musical structure, narrative and linearity. Frankly, I think many individuals like this electronic noise which you are so fond of calling 'music' because it helps them when they are on an acid trip, drunk or stoned.

You accuse me of insulting 'composers'. That's like telling me I've upset the furies; they are not real, just like your sound design 'composers'. I imagine some of them are out of work as we speak and registered at the local employment agency for jobs as either lion tamers, orchestra conductors or composers.

Finally, it's all rather hilarious is it not?

 

[JHC]

Finally, it's all rather hilarious is it not?

Nothing is ever final with this guy but yes he is a comedian that trolls all the music forums with the same inane postings never talking the music because he cant, take Wiki away and he is lost, best to ignore him.

 

[some guy]

In the first place, I don't have a dog or feral neighbours - I used these as an example of pitch-making noises which 'some people' could regard as music if it was, er, 'notated'. I was being ironic, though, about the vomiting and the pitch (pun) making noises there. All we need now is for somebody to, er, NOTATE it and you'll regard it as music. That seems to be your criteria.

Who? Who are these some people? And where did you get the idea that notation is my criteria. This is so far from anything I've ever said, and so far from anything I've ever believed, that I gotta wonder....

Helicopters and helicopter-like sounds - the general cacophonic result is sound design and not music

Yes. We know you've asserted this already. But the string quartet players in Stockhausen's piece do not make helicopter-like sounds. And the general result of this piece you obviously do not know is not generally cacophonic.

There's more 'music' in sound design than there is in your electronic noises. But, then, your noise is "notated" and that's the difference. (Slaps wrist)..I mean "composed".

Where are you getting all this stuff? And why is "sound design" more musical in this paragraph than in your other statements? Seriously. What is your point?

Nobody is going to swallow this argument of yours; the people have and are voting with their feet and will continue to do so.

To which argument are you referring? I enjoy Monteverdi. I enjoy Bach. I enjoy Beethoven. I enjoy Tchaikovsky. I enjoy Bartok. I enjoy Stockhausen. I enjoy Karkowski.

As for people, who are you talking about? For the past ten years, I have attended hundreds of concerts a year all over the world. At every single one of these concerts there were people. Sometimes quite a number of people. And even when there were only a few, they made up in enthusiasm what they lacked in numbers.

Which part of all of this do you not understand? Not everyone is like you. Some people think Hymnen is one of the great watersheds of the twentieth century, for instance. You don't. Well. OK. You can argue till hell freezes over that it's not music; the result will be the same. The people who enjoy it, as music, will continue to enjoy it, regardless. And Justin Bieber will continue to outsell Beethoven, too. But so what?

Point is, different people listen to and derive enjoyment from different things. And none of them need your faux concern for them to continue enjoying what they enjoy. It's not really as difficult or as amusing as you're making it out to be. And it certainly does not, as I'm getting tired of pointing out, come down to a choice between Bach and the dentist's drill. Some of us have somehow for some strange reason managed by sheer force of will to have both. What an effort, too. It's exhausting!!*

*In those last three sentences, there may be a certain amount of snark. Yes. It could be.

 

[Dirigent]

You seem to be the person with the problem about marginalization in "contemporary music" as it is your preoccupation all over the internet. Remember Shakespeare's quote..."the lady doth protest too much, methinks".

"Make up in enthusiasm what they lack in numbers"? I don't believe that otherwise you wouldn't be so openly hostile to criticism. Not rocket science and maybe, yes, you are the one with lorry loads of snark every time you post once of your "defences". Ever heard of Luther? Think about it.

And Justin Beiber 'outselling' Beethoven? That's hard to believe, given Beethoven's 200 years+ 'advantage' and what you mean by "outsell".

I still think your noise is just funny, but I'll bet acid-droppers, dope smokers and drunks love it!

 

[some guy]

Well, I suppose one way to respond to ideas is to ignore them, going for the person instead.

And one way to respond to a thing is to simply redefine the thing as a not-thing.

It's odd, too, how often the point about how much new music fans and old music fans have in common--namely a deep and abiding love for old music--is simply ignored as well. Oh well. I can go listen to Bach's B Minor Mass right now, if I want. And I will never ever feel like I have to defend that music by denigrating Karkowski or Stockhausen. I also, although a lot of people over the years have simply assumed this, never ever feel like I have to defend Karkowski by denigrating Bach. That just doesn't happen.

 

[JHC]

I would have thought that with your heavy load of concert dates what was it 'hundreds each year all over the world' that you would not have had time for an evening with Bach but there ya go what do us poor stop at homes know about anything, unless your idea of a concert is different from ours, perhaps 3 guys playing their ipads.

 

[some guy]

You're imagining that none of those concerts includes any music by Bach, maybe?

Or failing to imagine perhaps that since some days include three or four concerts--for upwards of nine days in a row--that leaves some days of the year free of any concerts.

I hate to ask, but how does 3 guys playing ipads differ from 3 other guys playing violins? In terms of what constitutes "concert." Your idea of a concert being performers performing is no different from my idea of a concert.

 

[Dirigent]

You're imagining that none of those concerts includes any music by Bach, maybe?

Or failing to imagine perhaps that since some days include three or four concerts--for upwards of nine days in a row--that leaves some days of the year free of any concerts.

I hate to ask, but how does 3 guys playing ipads differ from 3 other guys playing violins? In terms of what constitutes "concert." Your idea of a concert being performers performing is no different from my idea of a concert.

It's so sad that you don't know the difference; the guy 'playing' the ipad (or the stereo) can be any fool who can 'play' with some knobs (and this does not exclude people!). The violinist has been through music school and undergone as much training as a brain surgeon. Of course, if you haven't been to university you don't know what that might mean in terms of the effort/reward paradigm.

If you were to suggest to the man on this podium that what he is doing is equivalent to playing with an ipad he'd laugh in your face: and I wouldn't be there to defend you. (By the way, see if you can spot Harry Potter!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK9cKPCvXSw

You were right to "hate" to ask!! It's all entirely risible.

But, in keeping with your obvious/implied philosophy of what constitutes music, I'd say your post-modern 'take' and all its relativist connotations on what constitutes a concert is the thing which is causing you the most confusion. And stating things like "saying things are what they are not" and other such linguistically contorted twaddle will only do your own head in.

And 'concert' has lots off different meanings in the English language; one of these, specific to (say) a classical music messageboard means 'a person or a group of people playing musical instruments to make music for (or against!!!) an audience". Concert also means agreement; concerted can mean 'legitimate' or 'earnestly applied' as in a 'concerted effort'. I hope this clears it all up for you.

I forgive you; thousands wouldn't, but I do.

 

[some guy]

It's so sad that you don't know the difference

In terms of a concert being a performance by performers, there is no difference between a group of elementary school kids playing melody flutes and a group of professional musicians playing the overture to Rienzi.

There are vast differences otherwise, but not in so far as JHC's and my ideas of what a concert is, which was my only point. Nothing to do with any questions of quality or otherwise.

The guy playing the ipad is quite possibly a trained musician as well, in any case.

n keeping with your obvious/implied philosophy of what constitutes music, I'd say your post-modern 'take' and all its relativist connotations on what constitutes a concert is the thing which is causing you the most confusion.

I'm not confused at all. A concert is an event in which performers perform music.

IAnd stating things like "saying things are what they are not" and other such linguistically contorted twaddle will only do your own head in.

Maybe. But since the words you put into quotes is not, in fact, anything I ever said--or ever would have said--perhaps my head is, for the moment, relatively safe.

Making up linguistically contorted twaddle and putting it into someone else's mouth is probably not the most intellectually honest activity one can engage in. If we're going to have a reasonable conversation, you are going to have to do two things, stick to the point and stick to what I actually say.

And even if all you want to do is mock, your mockery will be more, um, pointed if you stick to what I actually say. Mocking something I didn't say, something that you made up, just doesn't have quite the zing of the real thing.

 

[JHC]

some guy .......... stop digging the hole is big enough.