New free (demo) set for GrandOrgue

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hallo everyone.

In my recent search I came along a new company from Holland named Virtual Organs and they release some real gems.
They offer a smaller edition of one of their organs full workin' no restrictions as a demo in two formats HW3 and GrandOrgue v.02

Name : Grote Kerk Wildervank 2m/p Organ. HW has six stops , SW has three and ped two. Trem+six(!) couplers also included. More or less about 529MB big. Samples in 16/44100 and in wav format.

HW3 version downloaded ok and installation is smooth (RAR file in Free edition).

My big and real problem is with the version in question the GO one.
Two mirrors provided and got an installer (....??!) in Dutch (sorry I do not understand Dutch) but somehow I managed to proceed and suddently a problem occured and installation aborted....
Tried many times no work.
I downloaded again and tried the 2nd mirror. All went ok, installation ok and got in C/ the odf and samples in their files.

Executing GO sample loading stopped in 36.C1 sample of the second stop and GO crashed.....

Went crazy. This stop Doppelflute 8' has some kinda problem, it doesn't have written it's sample rate (16/44100).

To get this organ working in GOv02 I created a new odf using the samples from HW3 version installed (are the same, but Doppelflute8 in HW is OK) and a whole new base background and stop positions ect.

It's a great shame this happens to GO version....:scold::shake:
If someone knows different please post !

Playin both HW3 and my new GO versions I enjoyed the clean sound and carefull selected (from the guys at Virtual Organs ) stops and couplers.
Excellent loops and stereo image of the original Dutch organ.

In my humble opinion the organ goes more to the English side than to Holland....What do you think ?
Marc , my friend I know you're not a player but you know a lot about Dutch organs.... can you give us more details ?

Please guys at Virtual Organs fix the problem and get rid of this installer !

Anyway another kid on the block to delight all GrandOrgue fans everywhere.

Enjoy !
Panos

 

[Evert-Jan]

Hi Panos

I haven't GOV2 om my PC - I have GOV1 and the downloaded Walker organ loads without any change.

I have tested the 36.C of the the Doppelflüte and this file is 44.1 kHz / 16 bit. So, this is not the problem.

Maybe I have a solution for you.
1)
I think that it is because the ü in the directory name of the Doppelflüte.
2)
The Doppelflüte section in the original .organ file is the first stop in the file, which has a blanc row in that section. The are more blanc rows in the following sections in the .organ file

I have not tested this because the V1 version on my PC. Maybe you can test both and give a reaction so I can inform the guys of the sampleset.

Further, I'am from Holland.
The file you have downloaded is a free demo version of the Walkerorgan in Wildervank (The Netherland); see http://www.walckerwildervank.nl/ for the information of the real organ. This is also in Dutch but maybe you can use google translation

The organ has 2 manuals+pedal with 25 stops (+ extended 30 stops).
www.virtual-organs.nl will release this organ completely before the end of this year in both a HW1/MO/GO version and a HW3 version (for a low price they said). The price is not published yet.
On their site you can listen for demo's, played on GO and HW without any convolution reverb
Go to www.virtual-organs.nl ; chose "orgel / instrumenten" and then "Walkerorgan"http://www.virtual-organs.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=58http://www.virtual-organs.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=58


Regards

Evert-Jan

 

[sesquialtera]

Hello Everyone

I've bought this sample set. Unfortunatly, I didn't like it at all.
Each pipe is too strictly, too perfectly tuned : 440,00 !
The result is a very cold sound, not realistic at all...
I use it in GrandOrgue, I made my own ".ogan" file with MyOdfCreator.
The author http://www.virtual-organs.nl/ says that there are some differences when it is used with Hauptwerk 3. He speaks about "random detuned sounds" ...
I hope it's true. For me, in GrandOrgue, it's very disappointing, it sounds like a synthesizer.
Have you got the same problem ?

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Sesquialtera,

For problems like this (perfectly in tune organs!) I suggest the use of an application called pipetune (http://www.duemig-neufahrn.de/Orgel/PipeTune/). Use it to slightly detune the notes of each rank, and then add a temperament and see the organ come back to life.

If you need help with this just let me know...

Hauptwerk v3 has user adjustable 'random detune' settings as well as detune settings in the ODF, so I'm sure that the HW3 version does sound better than the HW1.

Kind regards
GrahamG

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi Guys,

http://www.virtual-organs.nl/ have just released another organ, also with a smaller Demo model - the Van Oeckelen orgel (http://www.virtual-organs.nl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68&Itemid=75&lang=en). I'm going to be downloading it tonight (HW3 version).

Have fun,
GrahamG

 

[sesquialtera]

Thank you Graham,
I didn't have to use Pipetune : As a customer of www.virtual-organs.nl
,I've just recieved a link for a new version of the Walker organ.

This second version sounds much better than the first one,
expet for the reeds ! (a phazer effect )
( Have the samples been tuned with autotune ? )

------------------------------------------------

The Van Oekelen organ is nice and interesting
( the google translation is awfull, beyond understanding )
There are some more infos here :
http://www.orgelsite.nl/kerken11/oudepekela.htm

If you can read french:
http://orguesfrance.com/OudePekelaHervormdeKerk.html

and this sound bank is affordable ...
What do you think of the HW3, Graham ?

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hallo Sesquialtera, Hallo Graham

Virtual Organs NL doing the best they can to provide us with some good Dutch organ sets. Good work.

For Walker organ I've made my own GO set raising the couplers (demo set) so I got a realy huge sound from it, using Mystic Organ odf creator. mmmm yes it's too perfect tuned. Indeed.

Van Oekelen is better but has few stops in the demo version. I'm thinking to combine the two (demo) sets to see what's is happening.

Dear Sesquialtera, Hw3.3 is the best program there is for now.
Get the free version. You'll not regret it.

Both Dutch organs sound very much better in HW3.3. Also did a meantone tuning in Wildervank and everything is veeery different

Also there is the MYCO program from our friend Musicalis here.
This is a very very good program. It allows you to customize your needs in HW3.
My organ sets now are 70% customs (HW3, GO & jOrgan). He he, in jOrgan all my sets are 100% custom made, but I also customized to 50-60% the sets from the other fellow disposition creators.

best
Panos

 

[sesquialtera]

Hi Ghekorg7,

Thank you for those details.

Everybody tells me that Hauptwerk III is a very good program
But, I prefer GrandOrgue. I love configuring sounds and ODF myself.
Now, I've got about 30 different virtual organs, some free ( thank you for Burea ) some expensive, but all a personal ODF made with MyOdfCreator .
It took me weeks of work to prepare all of that, and I don't want to change now.

My question for Graham was : what do you think of the H3 version of this new Van Oekelen organ ... oops I forgot the end of the question ...
It seems to be rather dry ...

 

[Ghekorg7 (Ret)]

Hi Sesquialtera,

Ok I understand.
Van Oekelen is on the dry side yes, but it is placed in a small church, so reverb must be like this....

There are some things that can be found only in Hauptwerk 3 (and 2) and of course some very conveniant functions only in Grand Orgue(like shortcut keys or right click assign), and the best midi only in jOrgan, so I got them all three and work with all too:grin:
With MYCO for HW one can do the same and better like an odf creator (.organ files)

The most important thing that we need in GO is to load 24bit/48000Hz samples, also to find the way to operate draw stop sound effects ect.
The 24 to 16 bit difference is very very important. In 24 the noise is down and the quality rises.
That's why some sets sound better in HW3 than in GOv2. (there are some released for both)
Also HW3 has the VSTi version, thus we can add Pipe Organs in our recording divices (Reaper, CuBase, ect) and play it along with other instruments. Like load Mietke Harpsichord in HW3 VSTi and EWQL Symphonic and enjoy.....

And a last tip. With Jack 1.9.5 for windows we can add our favourite reverb to GO and HW3(32bit only...). Graham has a great tutorial on his site.

best regards
Panos

 

[JLD]

"The 24 to 16 bit difference is very important. In 24 the noise is down and the quality rises."

This is only partially true.

If samples are recorded to really use most of the 16 bits dynamic, I doubt you will be able to hear much difference between 16 bits and 24 bits.
For sample sets to be optimized in 16 bits, it is necessary to adjust recording level to get as close as possible to saturation for each rank. Then it is necessary to use the organ definition file to adjust each rank volume relative to each others.

Unfortunately, most 16 bits sample sets are not using this technique.
It is easy to verify by looking at very weak ranks (like flute) in a sound editor and check the bit depth. In many case I have seen the bit depth going even lower than 10 bits.


24 bits resolves this issue since even when ranks are recorded at very low level, the available bit depth is still good.
However this comes with the fact sample sets are 50% bigger!

 

[ggoode.sa]

Hi,
Back to a question that was asked that I didn't answer from Sesquialtera

what do you think of the H3 version of this new Van Oekelen organ... it seems rather dry

As I play with virtual reverb on most of time I didn't actually notice that it was dry

And a quick update on GrandOrgue - we are continuing our development but have had to do a lot of cleanup of the original code, so it has taken us longer to get where we wanted to be in regard to v0.3. We have a couple of new developers on the team this year, so I am hopeful that 24bit support will be available some time this year.

All the best,
GrahamG

 

[L.Palo]

@JLD: It's possible to "optimize" recording level on a per rank basis, not only by adjusting gain, but more importantly by changing mic position (move closer to source) but unfotunately the problem is that it does also change the relation of spacing of the pipes in the stereo spread and very likely the relation of direct vs reverberant sound. Even if you adjust the amplitudelevel to match the stops, they are likely to sound unnatural together because of those two reasons.

Possibly if one could record completely dry without almoast any reflections it would be possible to do, but still you'll have the problem of stereo spread (and possibly depth) to deal with. Unless you want to record in mono instead... But I've not heard any stereoized sampleset from mono that sound as real as a true stereo recording. Besides it's much more work to do afterwards with creating the sampleset then.

If one push the thought of optimization enough one will be so far from experiencing the real instrument that one could instead synthesize the samples. My opinion when recording is that a softer stop should not be as hot as a stronger one, it's simply not natural.

If I remember right the dynamic range for a 16 bit file is 96 dB or so but for 24 bit it's around 144 dB, so 24 bit is an important improvement. Memmory for computers are nowadays pretty cheap also so the increased size shouldn't be so problematic.

 

[JLD]

[FONT=&quot]Lars,
Don't disagree with your statements.
I just wanted to point that human hear probably can't appreciate dynamic range above 16 bits, that it is possible to achieve excellent results with 16 bits samples but unfortunately very few sample set providers have exploited 16 bits to its maximum. One of the value of going to 24 bits is to simplify sample sets recording since you can maintain same microphone gain and position for the entire recording and still be sure that the actual dynamic is excellent even on the weakest stops.
Another interesting fact is that you can use digital filtering with better results on 24 bits which means it is possible to save some recordings even when they are noisy.
In any case, it makes sense to record in 24 bits, even if releasing samples in 16 bits.

Concerning microphone position, when I worked on my sample set, I did not want to move them (although tempting for the reasons you provided) to maintain a consistent direct/reverb balance on all stops. Because of this I could only get around 6 to 12 dB improvement by playing with the relative rank levels.

We should very soon be able to test difference between 16 bits and 24 bits in GrandOrgue ;-)

[/FONT]

 

[Simmy]

Ghekorg Hello, I think your only was a problem connecting to the internet line ...
have tried to download several times the package rer of the trial version??

I have not had any problems, in fact, after two weeks I bought the full version!
This tool is wonderful, beautiful in the composition of the registers, brilliant in sound ...
and above all is quite in tune!

and let's finish with the same story, that a pipe organ tune too loses realism!

Try it for 20 singers accompany with a body that is granted or evil which has 10 pipes of 61 that do not play!

I played on a Tamburini in 1954 for several years and I was damn all times.
Unfortunately, the repairs were very expensive and the priest did not want to spend 80 million Italian lire (speaking in 1995) ... even today this organ, which I feel is mine and I love how you can love a child, it is not a tone and many stops you can not play.

back to 'pipe organ in question ...
I have always played with MyOrgan ... and I had no problem, perhaps the stops in the second they have a manual volume too low in the demo version, but just raise the volume of 3 stops and resolves everything.
as regards GrandOrgue, have never been able to play along on the first and second version ...
(Musucalis should know. Had written to him, on its website, asking for help).
Today, finally, with version 3 of GrandOrgue can play all the samples of body that I have collected over time, and are also able to create new pipe organs with free samples for HW.

Reading all the comments of fully equipped friends who have replied, I tell you that even if the section of the doppelflute there is a blank line (space) this is no problem with it MyOrgan it with GrandOrgue v.3.

I conclude by saying that this website has done a very good job.
that the pipe organ is really great!
is affordable to the pockets of many, and especially ...
you noticed that the folders are not only the 54 sounds of the stop,
but even 68 samples at each stop?

yes, it is true, the samples are 16 bit but after all these organs play them at home ....
and a strong and clean sound depends not only on sampling, but from the whole audio chain that we are using!

a greeting from Italy.
Simmy