Most Overrated and Underrated composers

[tphillips09]

Who do you guys think are the most overrated and underrated composers?

For overrated I'd say- Beethoven

I love a lot of his music, but he is way too glorified. I think his contributions to expanding music were amazing, and some of his stuff is sublime. But a lot of his stuff I feel like I'm just enduring it to get to the good stuff. Too much work, it doesn't really flow.

For underrated I'd say- Scriabin -- His symphonic works are rarely considered and contain many beautiful and new melodies. Unique harmonies.

 

[Contratrombone64]

I'd be hesitant to agree with you about Beethoven as I admire his work, there is a jolly good reason he is so popular still: he was one of the greats. Having said that he did, to my way of thinking, write some monumentally crappy stuff. The King Stephen overture is a perfect example.

My over rated goes to Shostakovich

My under rated goes to Neils Gade (pronounced ge-ther ... where the e in ge is similar to the e in egg and the ther has an almost silent r (think the swallowed French r and you're close)). Waiting patiently for all the Danes here to flame me down ...

 

[Art Rock]

I don't think overrated and underrated are useful words in this context. I'd rather use the following terms:

Composers I like a lot less than most classical music lovers:
Beethoven, Handel, Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Verdi, Vivaldi

Composers I like a lot more than most classical music lovers:
Bax, Gubaidulina, Rautavaara, Respighi, Salinen, Shostakovich, Suk, Takemitsu

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha CT64,

Sir Magle and Corno aka Thomas are too much gentlemen to flame you down - No worries, mate

I will probably get flamed for mentioning this composer's music as being over-rated: Handel

I apologise to my brother Mr. Newman - Frankly, Handel's music doesn't do anything for me.

Under-rated composers: Tournemire and Sorabji

 

[Robert Newman]

Well, if light was really thrown on the real life and career of W.A. Mozart we would marvel that he has reached and been given iconic status as the (alleged) composer of hundreds of musical masterpieces when, in actual fact, his career and status were stage-managed at every stage from childhood in Salzburg right up until his untimely death in late 1791. Mozart was simply not 'a musical genius'. In fact, Mozart hardly went to school, studied music in detail at no time in his entire life, and wrote hardly even one of the great works today attributed to him. He, with Haydn were products of blatant falsehood whose story has hardly been told. A project of late Holy Roman Empire propaganda. Involving elites, unaccountable and evil men. This fakery continued long after Mozart's death as the product of conservatism. And rising to the level of the modern iconic status of Mozart, 'genius composer'. 'All you have heard is true' says the trailer to the film, 'Amadeus'. All you have heard is, in fact, false.

The true composers of much of 'Mozart's' music included many who often worked for pennies, believing they were serving the 'project'. Names largely unknown to the musical world. A more cynical exercise in deception is hardly to be found in western musical history.

So, yes, hats off to composers whose names have gone unmentioned at the expense of this still ongoing industry of lies and deception, foisted on an unsuspecting world with jesuitical fanaticism. And, as for reality, what care they ?

P.S. C.D. has a good point on Handel !!! (But I won't scorch too severely in this short post). LOL ! Regards

 

[Andrew Roussak]

Well, the most overrated composer in the history of Soviet Union was Tchaikovsky, no doubt. He is still one of the most performed composers - so, overrated. The most underrated composer ( or one of ) was Nikolai Mettner. Maybe due to the fact he had left the Soviet Union - his name was quite seldom mentioned that time.

For the modern composers - Ludovico Einaudi is very overrated, IMHO, he is top-seller in UK and is being presented as one of the leading classical composers. No way!

Underrated - I guess Keith Emerson in the world of classical music, maybe due to his rocker image. But, his fingerwork is fantastic, and his piano concerto #1 is one of my favs ever.

 

[tphillips09]

Well, if light was really thrown on the real life and career of W.A. Mozart we would marvel that he has reached and been given iconic status as the (alleged) composer of hundreds of musical masterpieces when, in actual fact, his career and status were stage-managed at every stage from childhood in Salzburg right up until his untimely death in late 1791. Mozart was simply not 'a musical genius'. In fact, Mozart hardly went to school, studied music in detail at no time in his entire life, and wrote hardly even one of the great works today attributed to him. He, with Haydn were products of blatant falsehood whose story has hardly been told. A project of late Holy Roman Empire propaganda. Involving elites, unaccountable and evil men. This fakery continued long after Mozart's death as the product of conservatism. And rising to the level of the modern iconic status of Mozart, 'genius composer'. 'All you have heard is true' says the trailer to the film, 'Amadeus'. All you have heard is, in fact, false.

The true composers of much of 'Mozart's' music included many who often worked for pennies, believing they were serving the 'project'. Names largely unknown to the musical world. A more cynical exercise in deception is hardly to be found in the entire history of western musical history.

So, yes, hats off to those whose names have gone unmentioned at the expense of this still ongoing industry of lies and deception, foisted on an unsuspecting world with jesuitical fanaticism. And, as for reality, what care they ?

P.S. C.D. has a good point on Handel !!! (But I won't scorch too severely in this short post). LOL ! Regards

Woah Robert where did you read all of that?? Are you joking? I have never read such a thing. Incredibly Curious.

 

[tphillips09]

My goodness I've just done some research and read some of your posts on the topic in other forums!!!

This is blowing my mind!! I'm going to keep reading!!

 

[Robert Newman]

Hello there Tphillips,

I'm not sure what you've read but, yes, the broad outline of the case has already been given. Please feel free to write/discuss/ask as you please. That some of this music is beautiful is of course undeniable. But that's a quite separate issue.

If you have any specific question, great. It's a big subject so if you want me to answer specific or general questions that will be fine.

Regards

Robert

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha Mr. Newman,

You took my breath with your outlay on Mozart

I am stunned but I also think that you're onto something. It is no coincidence that Pope B16 is a lover of Mozart's oeuvre as well as JSBach's oeuvre. However, JSBach's oeuvre do not easily lend themselves to *Jesuitising* - However, Mozart and Haydn is another story. I can see where Mozart can have received *alot of help* in his Masses, Piano Works, Chamber works, and others. However, imo, his Operas I find highly original.

I do not make the connection with either Haydn or Salieri having *helped* or *ghost-written* Operas for WAM. I find Haydn and Salieri's *mental constitution* way too trite and staid for such dramatic works like Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte, Marriage of Figaro, Magic Flute, and other Operas. WAM's Operas, imo, were the counterweight to his other works. I almost detect a touch of Schizophrenia with WAM - the *stage-managed* compositions outside of Opera on the one hand, and on the other hand, the Operas.

Stayed tuned everybody...Same Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel :grin::grin::grin:

 

[Robert Newman]

Hi there C.D.,

The subject of Mozart is of course what we might call a 'paradigm'. A myth unto itself and not easily displaced regardless of the fact that it consists of wholesale exaggerations, errors, and downright musical fraud. So says the last 200 years and more, that is. That this person should, today, be taught in schools and colleges as some sort of 'example' for students is frankly laughable. In no sense was the real Mozart a model for anyone. But it's good that in any subject a person considers both sides of the story. And who knows, perhaps that's the best way.

I think the actual evidence is clear. The story we read of Mozart is mostly myth. A specially virulent myth but a myth all the same. One manufactured, defended and propagated by rich and powerful organisations, just as it was during Mozart's lifetime.

Regards

Robert

 

[Robert Newman]

Aloha Mr. Newman,

You took my breath with your outlay on Mozart

I am stunned but I also think that you're onto something. It is no coincidence that Pope B16 is a lover of Mozart's oeuvre as well as JSBach's oeuvre. However, JSBach's oeuvre do not easily lend themselves to *Jesuitising* - However, Mozart and Haydn is another story. I can see where Mozart can have received *alot of help* in his Masses, Piano Works, Chamber works, and others. However, imo, his Operas I find highly original.

I do not make the connection with either Haydn or Salieri having *helped* or *ghost-written* Operas for WAM. I find Haydn and Salieri's *mental constitution* way too trite and staid for such dramatic works like Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte, Marriage of Figaro, Magic Flute, and other Operas. WAM's Operas, imo, were the counterweight to his other works. I almost detect a touch of Schizophrenia with WAM - the *stage-managed* compositions outside of Opera on the one hand, and on the other hand, the Operas.

Stayed tuned everybody...Same Bat-Time, Same Bat-Channel :grin::grin::grin:

Hi there C.D.,

I'm still writing the story of Mozart. The evidence shows it really began a long time before he was born. In fact, the origins of the so-called 'Weiner Klassik' are today already recognised to be 'one of the last uncharted territories in musicology'. Comprising the 'holy trinity' of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven.

For a start, it's just untrue that 'Mozart's' music is highly distinctive, stylistically. To create this widely held impression it was first necessary to suppress, bury and simply spirit away works by many 18th century composers. Those of Josef Myslivececk and G.B. Vanhal (both intimately associated with Mozart) are two clear examples. There are more than 12 such composers in total. But the myth had to be created of an indigenous 'genius'. Haydn and Mozart fitted this bill perfectly.

And, as for the 626 works which were eventually (i.e. more than 60 years after Mozart's death) entered in to the Koechel catalogue, these have been decimated in number, even by Mozarteans themselves. For example, just refer to the 6th edition and compare it to the first. Why, more than 100 symphonies have falsely been attributed to Mozart alone - and that's agreed even by the Editors of Koechel.

Of the first 25 or so 'Mozart' symphonies not one of them contains proofs of being composed by him !

And so it goes on, year after year.

Honestly, this huge subject deserves a detailed argument but at least this rough outline will indicate the sheer scale of this industry of musical propaganda. It never ended. It continued during his decade in Vienna and long, long after his untimely death in December 1791.

Regards

 

[Contratrombone64]

And back to the topic maybe someone?

 

[Corno Dolce]

Aloha CT64,

And how has it now become off-topic - Surely thou dost jest my dear brother

Cheers,

CD :tiphat::tiphat::tiphat:

Ps: Methinks it is fitting and proper to have a discussion about why this or that composer's music is over or under-rated and that the discussion might really probe the depths, in this case the music of Mozart. I have always enjoyed and still do, playing and listening to music written by or attributed to WAM.

However, our colleague Mr. Newman is definitely onto something with his outlay on WAM which shocked me to the core and exposed my own ignorance. So, in the spirit of Enlightenment methinks it behooves us to keep an open mind and be willing to probe further. We will all be the richer for it.

 

[Robert Newman]

And back to the topic maybe someone?

I apologise if in your view I've temporarily taken the thread off topic (despite it being at least partly on over-rated composers). It seemed/seems as good a place as any to post a general outline. Though I agree it must seem amazingly improbable to you.

Anyway, I may do so on a separate thread.

Regards

 

[Todd]

Overrated, I’d have to say Shostakovich mainly for his “public” works. Underrated, well, there are a lot. Szymanowski comes immediately to mind.

Well, if light was really thrown on the real life and career of W.A. Mozart we would marvel that he has reached and been given iconic status as the (alleged) composer of hundreds of musical masterpieces when, in actual fact, his career and status were stage-managed at every stage from childhood in Salzburg right up until his untimely death in late 1791. Mozart was simply not 'a musical genius'. In fact, Mozart hardly went to school, studied music in detail at no time in his entire life, and wrote hardly even one of the great works today attributed to him. He, with Haydn were products of blatant falsehood whose story has hardly been told. A project of late Holy Roman Empire propaganda. Involving elites, unaccountable and evil men. This fakery continued long after Mozart's death as the product of conservatism. And rising to the level of the modern iconic status of Mozart, 'genius composer'. 'All you have heard is true' says the trailer to the film, 'Amadeus'. All you have heard is, in fact, false.

Can you please provide reputable documentary evidence of this?

 

[Robert Newman]

Yes, see other thread.

 

[Pista Gyerek]

I don't think there's any way to overrate the talent, vision, and influence of Bach or Beethoven. However, I find the music of Brahms overrated. While technically impressive, it lacks the excitement of the music of those other B's.

As far as underrated, I have no question that the word best describes the music of Roger Sessions. This significant composer and theorist was at the epicenter of mainstream American modernism, and yet he barely rates a footnote in most histories nowadays. I highly recommend his nine symphonies to anyone who wants to appreciate the power and optimism of modern music.

 

[Robert Newman]

Hi there Pista Gyerek,

Can you recommend a few specific works of Roger Sessions for us ? I have only his Concertino for Chamber Orchestra. Perhaps we can make a thread on his life and music ?

Thanks a lot

Robert

The fact that a whole world can exist which is daily judged by the relative values of philosophers, by ever shifting opinions and by highly subjective values, these imposed on us and often learned under the influence of others is itself proof positive of the existence of an absolute, which we, though only in part, are able with grace to be aware of. So also in this sphere of music.