last movement of the Tchaikovsky piano concerto

tomato

New member
On another forum, I just had a big fight with another contributor over how the last movement of the Tchaikovsky piano concerto shoud be analyzed.
Before I give you his opinion and mine, I would like a third opinion.
What form do YOU think it's in?
What form do other analysts think it's in?
Here are some printed sources which discuss the Tchaikovsky piano concerto.
I would look them up myself, except that I am stranded overseas with no English library access:

Dubal, David
The Essential Canon of Classical Music
p. 360

Pooler, Marie
A listening guide to major orchestral literature
p. 112

Ewen, David
Ewen's musical masterworks: the encyclopedia of musical masterpieces
p. 618

Norris, Jeremy
The Russian piano concerto, volume I: the nineteenth century
p. 114

DeVine, George
Knoxville Symphony Orchestra Programs
37th Season 1971-72, Apr. 18 p. 9
40th Season 1974-75, Mar. 20 p. 7
46th Season 1980-81, Oct. 16 p. 10
51st Season 1985-86, Feb. 13

Alford, Chris
Knoxville Symphony Orchestra Programs
54th Season 1988-89, Sept. 15
59th Season 1993-94, May 5

Rodda, Dr. Richard E.
Knoxville Symphony Orchestra Programs
62nd Season 1997-98, Sept. 18

Field, Corey
The musician's guide to symphonic music : essays from the Eulenburg scores
p. 639

Hales, Philip
Great Concert Music: Boston Symphony Program Notes
p. 356

Holoman, D. Kern
Evenings with the orchestra: a Norton companion for concert goers
p. 591

Kramer, Jonathan
Listen to the music
p. 760

Mordden, Ethan
A Guide to Orchestral Music: the Handbook for Non-Musicians (1980)
p. 258

Slonimsky, Nicolas
The great composers and their works
p. 330

Biancolli, Louis Leopold, ed.
The analytical concert guide
p. 636

Borowski, Felix
Chicago Symphony Orchestra Programs
43rd Season 1933-34, p. 427-432
43rd Season 1933-34, p. 600-604
45th Season 1935-36, p. 505
46th Season 1936-37, p. 238
47th Season 1937-38, p. 530
48th Season 1938-39, Civic Orchestra. Second Concert. Jan. 29
50th Season 1940-41, p. 206
50th Season 1940-41, p.604
51st Season 1941-42, p. 301
52nd Season 1942-43, p.536

Kramer, Jonathan
Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, 1998-99, p. 47

Frankenstein, Alfred
Modern Guide to Symphonic Music
p. 610

Fallows-Hammond, Patricia
Three Hundred Years at the Keyboard
p. 192

Veinus, Abraham
Victor Book of Concertos
p. 395

Smith, George H. L.
Great Orchestral Music
p. 427
 
Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Piano concerto No1 in Bbminor, op23, 3rd mov

Hello tomato.
Here's my knowledge to the 3rd movement.

Allegro con fuoco, Bbminor in 3/4 in sonata form.
First theme plays the piano in Bbminor and a fortissimo episode for full orchestra in Gb Major is in the nature of a second false theme.
The real 2nd theme appearing in the violins with horn accompaniment in Db major.
The piano takes it up, returning in the end to the 1st theme played with full ochestra and piano.
In the development the 2nd theme appears in Eb major.
The recapitulation brings the 1st theme back on the piano in Bb minor and the 2nd theme in Bb major (!)
Basses and timpani with a long pedal point on F lead to the repeat of the 2nd theme, molto meno mosso, playing piano with full orchestra (!)
The Coda, allegro vivo in Bb major, drives the work to its conclusion in a very brilliant manner.

Tchaikovsky dedicated this concerto to Rubinstein, who rejected it badly(!)
A well known story. So it must be played in a very deeply emotional way.

That's what I know. I played it when I was 20....now, ...I analyse.
Cheers
Panos
 

tomato

New member
[FONT=바탕]Thank you, Ghekorg![/FONT] [FONT=바탕]
[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]This is how I conceived of it:[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]
[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]A in tonic, ms. 1[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕](subtheme in GbM, ms. 37)[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕](modulatory passage beginning from FM, ms. 45)[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]B in DbM, ms. 57[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]A in tonic, ms. 89[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕](subtheme in AbM, ms. 114)[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕](modulatory passage beginning from GM, ms. 122)[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]B in EbM, ms. 134[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]A in tonic, ms. 159[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]B in BbM, ms. 252[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]
[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]This seems to have common points with your analysis.[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]
[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]The contributor on the other forum assigns upper case letters to the subthemes and modulatory passages, ignores what I call the B theme, and for some reason, places markers at measures 182 and 243. He claims to have discussed the movement with David Brown, author of a two-volume work on Tchaikovsky. Brown is supposed to discuss this particular movement on pages 21-22 of the second volume. I am stranded overseas with no English library access, so I don't know.[/FONT] [/FONT]
[FONT=바탕]
[/FONT]
[FONT=바탕][FONT=바탕]Although I don't quite see the sonata form in the movement, it is reassuring to see that I am not completely off my trolley.[/FONT] [/FONT]
 
Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Hi Tomato !

I'm glad we agree !
There is certainly a B theme : one false and the original.
Sonata form I insist.
I learned from my teacher many years ago. She got instructions from Alexis Weisenberg in 1958 or so...who played the concerto under Von Karajan directive.
I believe we're right, at least the chain from witch I learned seems very respective !

Cheers
Panos
 
Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Ghekorg7 (Ret)

Rear Admiral Appassionata (Ret)
Contratrombone64 said:
I wasn't aiming my comment at you, Ghekorg ...
Click to expand...

OK . Understood. No harm done. Tomato had to specify witch one, that's for sure. He had to be exact and on the spot for a serious matter as this one.

To tell you the truth, I guessed by instict it was the 1st one:grin:
 
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