Karlheinz Stockhausen
- Thread starter rojo
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some guy
New member
Prozession, for sure.
Momente.
Gruppen is good fun.
The opening to [SIZE=-1]Klavierstück[/SIZE] nr. 9 is to die for.
I like the famous Gesang... all right, but Hymnen is more fun, I think. Longer, too.
I recently got the Helicopter Quartet, more on the strength of its being Arditti playing it than anything else, and was surprised at how um well pretty it is.
Kurzwelle was where I stopped listening to Stockhausen. So there's a big gap in my listening experience which I should probably start filling.... (I haven't listened to Kurzwelle in quite a long time. It'll probably seem very nice and pretty to me now, no doubt!
Momente.
Gruppen is good fun.
The opening to [SIZE=-1]Klavierstück[/SIZE] nr. 9 is to die for.
I like the famous Gesang... all right, but Hymnen is more fun, I think. Longer, too.
I recently got the Helicopter Quartet, more on the strength of its being Arditti playing it than anything else, and was surprised at how um well pretty it is.
Kurzwelle was where I stopped listening to Stockhausen. So there's a big gap in my listening experience which I should probably start filling.... (I haven't listened to Kurzwelle in quite a long time. It'll probably seem very nice and pretty to me now, no doubt!
Sybarite
New member
I admit to knowing very little about Stockhausen's work, but his death prompted me to download this from iTunes and I've ordered Kontakte from Amazon.
What I've had the chance to listen to properly of the downloaded music, thus far I've enjoyed and look forward to hearing more.
As a complete aside, some guy – is your avatar of the Stravinsky fountain at the Pompidou in Paris?
What I've had the chance to listen to properly of the downloaded music, thus far I've enjoyed and look forward to hearing more.
As a complete aside, some guy – is your avatar of the Stravinsky fountain at the Pompidou in Paris?
some guy
New member
Sybarite, finally!! Someone finally recognized the Stravinsky fountain at the Pompidou.
(After I'd moved back to the U.S.--long story--after a brief and very lovely stay in Paris, my youngest son was looking at pictures I'd taken of the Stravinsky fountain. His comment, "Why would you ever leave a place that has something like this!!" Ha ha. It's true. I had no good answer for that question. And last year, we all met up in Paris for the Spectrum XXI festival, and I took the boys to that fountain, by a circuitous route. We come around the corner; there it is; and my youngest yells: "Hey! That's it! That's that place in your pictures!!"
I love my kids.)
Anyway, back to the thread. I left Mikrophonie off my list. I heard that live in L.A. back in the 80's as I recall. Possibly part of the Olympics Arts Festival. Possibly just one of the new music concerts. Anyway, it's a real stunner, especially live, as you get to see all the cool equipment and watch the performer travel all over that huge tam tam with all sorts of neat toys.
(After I'd moved back to the U.S.--long story--after a brief and very lovely stay in Paris, my youngest son was looking at pictures I'd taken of the Stravinsky fountain. His comment, "Why would you ever leave a place that has something like this!!" Ha ha. It's true. I had no good answer for that question. And last year, we all met up in Paris for the Spectrum XXI festival, and I took the boys to that fountain, by a circuitous route. We come around the corner; there it is; and my youngest yells: "Hey! That's it! That's that place in your pictures!!"
I love my kids.)
Anyway, back to the thread. I left Mikrophonie off my list. I heard that live in L.A. back in the 80's as I recall. Possibly part of the Olympics Arts Festival. Possibly just one of the new music concerts. Anyway, it's a real stunner, especially live, as you get to see all the cool equipment and watch the performer travel all over that huge tam tam with all sorts of neat toys.
Corno Dolce
Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hello some guy,
Your avatar reminds me of something by Nikki de St. Phalle - And sure enough it was...:grin::grin::grin:
For those who'd like to know more about Nikki, click on the links below:
http://artplastock.web-xperience.com/assets/galleries/74/nikki-de-saint-phalle-4.jpg
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...21&ndsp=21&svnum=100&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N
Cheers,
Corno Dolce
Your avatar reminds me of something by Nikki de St. Phalle - And sure enough it was...:grin::grin::grin:
For those who'd like to know more about Nikki, click on the links below:
http://artplastock.web-xperience.com/assets/galleries/74/nikki-de-saint-phalle-4.jpg
http://images.google.com/imgres?img...21&ndsp=21&svnum=100&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&sa=N
Cheers,
Corno Dolce
Andrew Roussak
New member
You may find this video interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Nx-unHOOM&feature=related
This is a video on YouTube - Vanessa Benelli Mosell plays Stockhausen in BARGA, a piano piece ( a serial one, as I believe ). You may find it interesting how the comments are polarized there - from "genious" to "toilet music" ( I am sorry, this is a quotation ).
@rojo - Rojo (and some guy also ) - I absolutely understand your anger concerning that short post ( see above ). To just say that music is "crap" or just "genious" is , in fact, the same as to say nothing, and is rather close to spamming therefore. Ok.
But you see how different the opinions are - what do you think of the piece of music played by Vanessa Benelli? I can only say, the performance ( of the pianist ) is perfect, no question about that.
What would you say?
Cheers,
Andrew
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4Nx-unHOOM&feature=related
This is a video on YouTube - Vanessa Benelli Mosell plays Stockhausen in BARGA, a piano piece ( a serial one, as I believe ). You may find it interesting how the comments are polarized there - from "genious" to "toilet music" ( I am sorry, this is a quotation ).
@rojo - Rojo (and some guy also ) - I absolutely understand your anger concerning that short post ( see above ). To just say that music is "crap" or just "genious" is , in fact, the same as to say nothing, and is rather close to spamming therefore. Ok.
But you see how different the opinions are - what do you think of the piece of music played by Vanessa Benelli? I can only say, the performance ( of the pianist ) is perfect, no question about that.
What would you say?
Cheers,
Andrew
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Sybarite
New member
It struck me that Clarissa possibly made the post concerned in reference to reported comments by Stockhausen over 9/11.
However, even assuming that, her comment implies that anyone who says something with which she disagrees deserves to die.
A very dodgy point of view. But one that, ironically (if I have read this right), al-Queda would probably agree with.
However, even assuming that, her comment implies that anyone who says something with which she disagrees deserves to die.
A very dodgy point of view. But one that, ironically (if I have read this right), al-Queda would probably agree with.
some guy
New member
Near as I can tell, the opinions about the piano piece are different because the experiences of the posters are different. The ones who have listened to more more music have an easier time understanding it (and an easier time with being able to say something intelligible about the performance).
That's only a guess, of course, but one based on, well, experience. People who have not listened to much new music, and who also have a bad attitude about it (no, the two do not always go together!), will say that this sounds like random doodling. People with more experience will say that it sounds like disconnected notes but the sonorities are nice. People who listen to a fair amount of new music will be able to hear that it's a very tightly constructed piece, nothing random or disconnected about it. And smart-asses like myself will inevitably add at this point that there's naught wrong with random or disconnected.
Or so I've noticed in the past....
That's only a guess, of course, but one based on, well, experience. People who have not listened to much new music, and who also have a bad attitude about it (no, the two do not always go together!), will say that this sounds like random doodling. People with more experience will say that it sounds like disconnected notes but the sonorities are nice. People who listen to a fair amount of new music will be able to hear that it's a very tightly constructed piece, nothing random or disconnected about it. And smart-asses like myself will inevitably add at this point that there's naught wrong with random or disconnected.
Or so I've noticed in the past....
Andrew Roussak
New member
Well, some guy, surely I agree that such remarks as "crap" or "toilet music" are not the evidence of higher intellect or deep experience. But I would say also, concerning the comments on YouTube, people who just post smth. like "genious" or "music of the future " do not work more convincing for me as well. People may just act differently in the same situation. Some would say "crap" to any music they do not understand, and the other might say "great" or "genious", because they had read it somewhere and would prefer to look thus more intelligent.
Actually I have got not a slightest doubt that the piece, as well as all others composed by Stockhausen, must be perfectly constructed - what else can one expect from a professor of music? I have really very basical knowledge in a theorie of the serial music - that is, I know which are the rules for building a 12-tone serie, which things are to be avoided etc. I have never tried to analyse any piece of Stockhausen, because I just don't have the scores ( well, I have some of Gubaidullina, which are serial too - doesn't matter ).
What I actually mean here - I strongly suppose, that even if I had analysed each and every tone in the serie and knew exactly - yes , this cluster must follow precisely at this time and place - I would not still like what I hear. I have tried, seriously tried many times ( you can listen to the new music on a radio station SWR2 in Germany, Baden - Württemberg - any time of the day... ) - and failed to fall in love with it...
Maybe I am wrong - I don't know. Can you describe , in rather common terms, the positive emotions you experience, listening to Stockhausen? I do not mean the visual parts here, like Kontakte or Hymnes. Do you, truly and honestly, enjoy what you are listening, or is it only amazingly interesting for you?
Best regards,
Andrew
Actually I have got not a slightest doubt that the piece, as well as all others composed by Stockhausen, must be perfectly constructed - what else can one expect from a professor of music? I have really very basical knowledge in a theorie of the serial music - that is, I know which are the rules for building a 12-tone serie, which things are to be avoided etc. I have never tried to analyse any piece of Stockhausen, because I just don't have the scores ( well, I have some of Gubaidullina, which are serial too - doesn't matter ).
What I actually mean here - I strongly suppose, that even if I had analysed each and every tone in the serie and knew exactly - yes , this cluster must follow precisely at this time and place - I would not still like what I hear. I have tried, seriously tried many times ( you can listen to the new music on a radio station SWR2 in Germany, Baden - Württemberg - any time of the day... ) - and failed to fall in love with it...
Maybe I am wrong - I don't know. Can you describe , in rather common terms, the positive emotions you experience, listening to Stockhausen? I do not mean the visual parts here, like Kontakte or Hymnes. Do you, truly and honestly, enjoy what you are listening, or is it only amazingly interesting for you?
Best regards,
Andrew
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Corno Dolce
Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hi Mr. Roussak,
Those are excellent questions you posed at the end of your post - "Do you enjoy" or "Is it amazingly interesting"? I would define those questions you posed as intelligent questions - ones that call upon greater reflection, not just a standard *yes* or *no* answer.
Since we are on the subject of Stockhausen, I shall humbly add that I'm interested in how he goes about creating the sounds, nuances, and patterns. Now, do I *enjoy* his music? Well, no. It does not evoke an emotional response nor does it caress my g-string :grin::grin::grin:
Humbly and respectfully,
Corno Dolce
Those are excellent questions you posed at the end of your post - "Do you enjoy" or "Is it amazingly interesting"? I would define those questions you posed as intelligent questions - ones that call upon greater reflection, not just a standard *yes* or *no* answer.
Since we are on the subject of Stockhausen, I shall humbly add that I'm interested in how he goes about creating the sounds, nuances, and patterns. Now, do I *enjoy* his music? Well, no. It does not evoke an emotional response nor does it caress my g-string :grin::grin::grin:
Humbly and respectfully,
Corno Dolce
Andrew Roussak
New member
Hi mr.Corno Dolce ( rear admiral, Sir!!,
)thanks for it! Maybe I should be somehow more specific about what I mean. Rather difficult to express it...Well, let me try like this - can atonal music make somebody cry?
Cheers,
mr. Andrew , still only captain...
Corno Dolce
Admiral Honkenwheezenpooferspieler
Hi Mr. Roussak,
Again you pose an excellent question. *Can atonal music make one cry*?
Well, I guess it all depends - one can cry because of the emotional impact a piece has. Should not one *finely* define *cry* as in sadness, bittersweet introspection, or a cry of disgust, anger, melancholy, or general emotional instability?
If one could ask the *hearer* of the piece as to what specifically in the music made them cry, one could draw a general inference but I surmise that would not be satisfactory for a scientifically based inquiry. Probably the range and shades of the different human emotions are as many as there are people on this Earth.
But the validity of your question still stands.
Humbly,
Corno Dolce
Again you pose an excellent question. *Can atonal music make one cry*?
Well, I guess it all depends - one can cry because of the emotional impact a piece has. Should not one *finely* define *cry* as in sadness, bittersweet introspection, or a cry of disgust, anger, melancholy, or general emotional instability?
If one could ask the *hearer* of the piece as to what specifically in the music made them cry, one could draw a general inference but I surmise that would not be satisfactory for a scientifically based inquiry. Probably the range and shades of the different human emotions are as many as there are people on this Earth.
But the validity of your question still stands.
Humbly,
Corno Dolce
Muza
New member
I've got to admit, this is the first time I even hear about Karlheinz Stockhausen and get acquainted with his work, which, with all due respect to the musician and all his admirers, I would not call music. (just as I would not call it senseless noises)
I have to agree with Andrew Roussak on a lot of what he is saying. It is unconventional and innovative, which makes it either scary, intolerable, and rebellious for a more conservative public, or intriguing and suspensful grounds that are yet to be explored for the others.
And while sadness, bittersweet introspection, melancholy, or general emotional instability does lead to *cry,* I would have to say that not enough of these emotions or emotional instability can be elicited by this kind of "music," as opposed to music of Beethoven, Tchaikovskiy, Vivaldi which simply enruptures one. I think Mr. Roussak is really onto something when he asked the questions that he did.
I have to agree with Andrew Roussak on a lot of what he is saying. It is unconventional and innovative, which makes it either scary, intolerable, and rebellious for a more conservative public, or intriguing and suspensful grounds that are yet to be explored for the others.
And while sadness, bittersweet introspection, melancholy, or general emotional instability does lead to *cry,* I would have to say that not enough of these emotions or emotional instability can be elicited by this kind of "music," as opposed to music of Beethoven, Tchaikovskiy, Vivaldi which simply enruptures one. I think Mr. Roussak is really onto something when he asked the questions that he did.
some guy
New member
Andrew,
I don't know how to answer your question about crying. I've seen several threads in different forums asking what music makes you weep. I've never participated, because if I'm crying, then I'm no longer listening. And listening's what I do with music.
Mostly the emotion (though I'm not thinking of my emotions when I'm listening) I feel would be exhilaration, I guess. Great music, even good music, makes me generally pleased--whether there's an extramusical component or not, whether that extramusical component is about sorrow or horror or danger or joy or love or whatever.
So you'll have already guessed by that that I don't distinguish between "enjoy" and "amazingly interesting." If something is amazingly interesting, I'll enjoy it.
Otherwise, I don't know what to say about your trying, and failing, to fall in love with new music. My experience for a long time was that each new thing I heard was a delight. And when I heard [SIZE=-1]Bartók[/SIZE]'s Concerto for Orchestra in 1972, I became aware of this category called "twentieth century" or "modern" music. A few months later, when I hit Carter and Stockhausen and Berio and Mumma--only then did I feel I had to struggle. But by then, the momentum for me was so great, that no setback was other than minor. I knew I loved this stuff, and something that didn't grab me today might grab me tomorrow, or the next day.
It's happened before!
So I don't really understand "seriously tried many times...and failed to fall in love with it," not from personal experience anyway. I feel like I may have been in love with it from the start, so that when I came up against something I didn't get at first, like Carter's Double Concerto or Mumma's Hornpipe or Berio's Visage, I just set it to the side for a bit and then came back to it later. (Yes, I do enjoy all three of those now.)
I guess my question for you would be "why did you try, seriously, many times?" The answer to that might be a clue as to what to do next. If you tried because you thought you should, because you felt somehow that you should educate yourself, then I'd suggest that you stop trying. Listen to what you like. Your likes and your future experiences may lead you to further likes, some of which may be with modern musics. If not, "oh well!"
If you tried because something intrigued you about some piece or other, so that you thought, knowing yourself as you do, that you should really like this, then you probably will end up liking this stuff. Again, you can stop trying. It will happen.
If, however, you really haven't tried, seriously, but are just saying that so you can advance the notion that the music you hate is in itself worthless and hateful--if you pretended to try so that you could report failure, then there's nothing more to say. You're being intellectually dishonest.
I don't know you well enough to even attempt a guess as to which of those is true for you!! Those are just three possibilities. There may even be more than those three, I don't know. I certainly hope that the last one does not apply to you! (You're in Karlsruhe, after all. That's a good place to be if you like new music! Go to some ZKM shows, I'd say, if you haven't already. That place is an amazing hotbed of activity, yes.)
I don't know how to answer your question about crying. I've seen several threads in different forums asking what music makes you weep. I've never participated, because if I'm crying, then I'm no longer listening. And listening's what I do with music.
Mostly the emotion (though I'm not thinking of my emotions when I'm listening) I feel would be exhilaration, I guess. Great music, even good music, makes me generally pleased--whether there's an extramusical component or not, whether that extramusical component is about sorrow or horror or danger or joy or love or whatever.
So you'll have already guessed by that that I don't distinguish between "enjoy" and "amazingly interesting." If something is amazingly interesting, I'll enjoy it.
Otherwise, I don't know what to say about your trying, and failing, to fall in love with new music. My experience for a long time was that each new thing I heard was a delight. And when I heard [SIZE=-1]Bartók[/SIZE]'s Concerto for Orchestra in 1972, I became aware of this category called "twentieth century" or "modern" music. A few months later, when I hit Carter and Stockhausen and Berio and Mumma--only then did I feel I had to struggle. But by then, the momentum for me was so great, that no setback was other than minor. I knew I loved this stuff, and something that didn't grab me today might grab me tomorrow, or the next day.
It's happened before!
So I don't really understand "seriously tried many times...and failed to fall in love with it," not from personal experience anyway. I feel like I may have been in love with it from the start, so that when I came up against something I didn't get at first, like Carter's Double Concerto or Mumma's Hornpipe or Berio's Visage, I just set it to the side for a bit and then came back to it later. (Yes, I do enjoy all three of those now.)
I guess my question for you would be "why did you try, seriously, many times?" The answer to that might be a clue as to what to do next. If you tried because you thought you should, because you felt somehow that you should educate yourself, then I'd suggest that you stop trying. Listen to what you like. Your likes and your future experiences may lead you to further likes, some of which may be with modern musics. If not, "oh well!"
If you tried because something intrigued you about some piece or other, so that you thought, knowing yourself as you do, that you should really like this, then you probably will end up liking this stuff. Again, you can stop trying. It will happen.
If, however, you really haven't tried, seriously, but are just saying that so you can advance the notion that the music you hate is in itself worthless and hateful--if you pretended to try so that you could report failure, then there's nothing more to say. You're being intellectually dishonest.
I don't know you well enough to even attempt a guess as to which of those is true for you!! Those are just three possibilities. There may even be more than those three, I don't know. I certainly hope that the last one does not apply to you! (You're in Karlsruhe, after all. That's a good place to be if you like new music! Go to some ZKM shows, I'd say, if you haven't already. That place is an amazing hotbed of activity, yes.)
Andrew Roussak
New member
Hi, some guy, thanks for your so detailed answer!
Now, my point concerning crying is following - can this new music move you emotionally, or is this a pure intellectual kind of joy? Man, it is so difficult to explain...
All right, another try.
You know, that the dissonant and consonant intervals in music are not subjective things . They are objective, as having the physical, accoustic nature - the row of overtones, you know. Each and every person, regardless of culture and education, will describe the third or fifth as smth. harmonic, and the small second or tritone as its opposite.
My question is - how can one enjoy ( emotionally ) the music, built predominantly on dissonant structures, without any sign of resolution into some harmonic / tonal centre? I know that the atonal music denies the tonality and such things as dissonant/consonant intervals just do not exist in it anymore. I know also, that my question is in no way new ( only think of Schönberg ).
Still, I have no answer.
Oh man, this question is rather easy to answer. It is smth. about, how can anything in music exist, which many others do understand and I still not? That is the motive. I am just trying to get it. Honestly, no crafty ideas behind it.
Why you think I should HATE anything I don't understand? Hatred is normally a sign of some inner problems - hope I don't have them! In this case, I would just switch to another channel, and would not post here anything at all .
Actually ( thanks for your tip, and welcome to KA ! ) there is even no necessity of going to ZKM - you can switch on SWR2 and get actually in this field. For me, it's absolutely not about the modern arts in general - I find for example Kontakte or Hymne an amazing thing as well , concerning the visual row. It's only about music.
This is much similar to another thread in this forum - a French band MAGMA. Look here, if interested:
http://www.magle.dk/music-forums/4366-mission.html
How different the opinions may be. Concerning MAGMA , btw. - I have about somewhat 20 yrs. or like of studio experience , and I truly believe I do understand a bit in the subject. Magma is on my friend's list in MySpace, and they are absolutely GREAT MUSICIANS, as well as, say Tony Levin or Bill Brufford - related genre. But I DON'T LIKE THE MUSIC THEY ARE PLAYING , though I would not tell of it that categorically ( see the thread once again ) and would like to know, what pnoom ( the poster ) finds in it.
Not because I think I am presumably right - but, once again, he had only posted that MAGMA is a great band, and then gone, and did not even care to explain anything. And I just want to know....
Cheers and merry Xmas in advance,
Andrew
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