From thought to finished ??

[Jette]

I´m curious about the process from thought to finished. I`m not a composer/musician myself, so I don`t know anything about it, but I thought it would be interesting to hear about it. Do you get like small pieces into you head and when you have maybe 50 you put them together?, do the pieces come like da di da or maybe played by a violin?, what`s easiest to do commissioned work (fx theater)or a cd (you are the boss). How is the recording process?. Basicly I`m interested in everything before the finish cd/piece. I don`t know if this makes sense

and if it`s even posible to explain in words, but if posible I would love to hear about it

Jette

 

[Rune Vejby]

Hi Jette,


It is indeed a very interesting topic and I believe you will get alot of different answers as the process of composition varies alot, depending on the creator.
I am personally strongly against the method of "putting" different pieces togehter. In my opinion each composition shall have its own life and story, and this is more or less impossible to accomplish to perfection if you just put different melodies togehter... maybe some melodies can fit togehter, but unless they are working 110% with eachother I will not do it that way...
Some of my music is initiated by a melody which I create in my mind and then subsequently transfer to the piano/computer (the computer plays an essential part in my composition process in terms of notation and chord programming). But most of my music I normally build up around a rather long theme (normally at least 24 bars/takter) and then compose the rest of the body to my likeings. This demands alot of time and creativity, but it is my favourite way of working.
Normally, it is my intention not to use any more than 4-5 days (and nights

) on a piece (normally a work for piano) as I have experienced that I lose creativity-flow and concentration after that period of time...
During these 4-5 days I actually "only" spend around 5-6 hours each day in front of the piano making the actual music. The rest of the time I use to gather inspiration from various places. Most of my music is impressionistic so it is natural for me to get my inspiration from various parts of the nature in Denmark (forrests/oceans/etc.)... Som say this is a weird way of doing it, but it works for me and I don't want to sit in my studio all day because I know that I well get tired and lose creativity quite quickly....

So thats my way of working... after the actual piece is completed I do some pre-mastering of the sound (regulation of soundlevels, optimization of stereo sound) before I finally get a professional producer to do the actual mastering.

Sometimes I also compose music with inspiration from a painting or to a person I like... it depends on my mood

I don't really do commissioned work - mostly because I am not economically dependent on my music (im a full-time student) and I don't like to have a deadline to work with.
So I just make the music that I want to, and eventually some of it is being used by commercial companies and in various projects... so that gives some sort of indirect commission

Hope that gave you some insight. But as I said, it varies alot from composer to composer

I hope others will also reply to this

Great post, Jette !!!

kh
Rune

 

[corno]

Hi Jette,

I think it varies alot, like Rune wrote.
Also a composer might use different approaches depending on what he/she is writing.

For me there are 2 ways I normally go about the process, and I'm also, like you, interested in hearing others approach to composition.
I mainly write for classical ensembles of different sizes, and one of the methods I use is when getting an idea (melodically or rhytmically) I write them down using different notational programs on my computer and then "play" a little with them - some times the inspiration continues and more ideas come to life - some compatible some not... the ideas can range from a specific "voice"/instrument to a more general thematical and/or rhymical idea...
The process of writing the music down also varies - sometimes it's usefull to write a "piano-score" (without any specific instruments) and then when it's nearing completion you go about orchestrating it for the ensemble you're writing for and in this process other ideas might arise - sometimes it makes more sence to write for the ensemble from the first instance, for me this is mostly only valid in regards to a relatively small ensemble like a choir, wind quintet, string quartet aso. It's a bit of a task starting your initial composing by having a big score in front of you and then slowly start filling it out. Some might find this way more interesting, some might not.

It's not unlike paiting I guess - starting with a "skeleton drawing" of the subject you're painting then filling in some more nuances and finally putting on the final coat of paint (the orchestration part if you will). - Some might "just" "throw" pintcolours at a canvas or start painting the picture in "freehand" (the musical equivalent could be improvisation - which I'm sure Frederik can go on about for hours

). Again it varies.

But alot of the work in composing is knowing your medium, the musical theory behind and wanting to spend hours with a seeming small amount of "inspiration" to see what you might be able to derive from it - adapting themes, writing in a specific style aso aso. - Composition is rarely just a matter of writing the inspiration down (which can be hard enough) - it's what you do with the inspiration after you get it that, normally, shows your abillity as a composer (like your knowledge and abillity of orchestration or maybe your originality in adapting your material thematically and rhymically and more).

So composition is not unlike the cliché: 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. So it's definately about talent, but there's much more than just getting a good idea!

This was the more classical approach to composition - composing/producing a cd is not unlike composing in general - it relies heavily on your knowledge of the possibilities in the medium (in this case the computer/audio production programs) - adding layers (drums, bass, guitars aso) and making them sound right, adjusting the tone qualities, cutoff filters (enhancing some part of the sound from the fundamental notes through the overtones).

Inspiration for all this might come spontaniously, or as an inspiration based on something you've seen or read (or felt!)... conveying emotions is one of the strongst elements to music - the universal understanding of emotions through music might change somewhat from continent to continent (depending on the historical/cultural heritage), but the general "feeling" is about the same everywhere.

I hope this did a little in helping you understand what it means to compose.

Looking forward to see more posts on this topic from others.

Thomas

 

[Jette]

Thanks Rune and Thomas

. That was very interesting reading and I think I`m a little wiser, but I`m gonna read it again tomorrow, I`m a bit tired now, so the brain isn`t working very well

. But there is one thing I thought about. When recording a cd, do you/they only use instruments from a computer, don`t you/they use live ones, what I mean is, the instruments are played live at the studio (one at the time), recorded on a track and then later mixed together?. Don`t know if it`s a stupid question, but I have never been to a studio (only seen it on films), so I don`t know how it works

.
Finally I also hope that there will be more posts on this topic, so that I can become even wiser

Jette

 

[Jette]

I can see that feelings plays a big part in composing music, just like in painting, sometimes you can suddenly see a big change in style. That makes me curious about, when you are paid to do fx a piece for a theatre and it`s a very sad

love story, but you just got married and are madly in love, how do you find those feelings or is that just part of beeing talented?. I`m thinking of, when I`m at work having a really bad day, I can put on a happy face, when I meet the patients (it`s not their fault

), but I can`t change my thoughts.

Jette

Btw even though Frederik can go on about improvisation for hours, I would love to hear about it. I`m off work till 24 of August, so I got plenty of time

and as you can see I`m interested in every little detail

 

[Rune Vejby]

Great post, Thomas... nice to see other processes of composing - we might all learn a bit here

Jette, regarding CD recording and instrument selection: Personally I normally do the recording on a virtual instrument when i make music for piano. Mainly this is done in order to get PERFECT timing and velocity/volume for EACH and EVERY note in the piece. Each piece conatins way over 1000 notes so you can imagine the time it takes

I only do it this way because I have suitable computer software to do so. I have a program which contains samples form a Grand Piano - it actually makes perfect sound and I can alternate different filters to give the piano the sound that I want it to have... that is great!
When recording music for orchestra I guess the normal procedure in the 21st century is to first use computer samples (these have through the years increased in quality) for each instrument and make the sheet music and a sound demo... When the actual recording is to take place it should definitely be with a real orchestra. Think about it: 20-30 software instruments put togehter at the same time... even though the samples are great, it will never sound like a real orchester

But computer software is definitely playing an important role in composition these days - also in classical music

I can't really answer your second question, because I don't have that kind of experience, but hopefully someone else can give you a qualified answer.

By the way, do enjoy your vacation!!! And have a nice trip to Copenhagen

kh
Rune

 

[Jette]

Thanks again Rune

. I`ll wait and see if someone can answer number 2

. I know it`s a crappy example, but that was the only thing I could come up with, explaining what I meant. Still looking forward to more posts on the subject (from thought to finished)

Jette

Yes I`m really enjoing my vacation and the nice danish weather

 

[corno]

As to your 2nd question about commisioned music... again it depends on a lot of aspects... but composition as such is not a magical thing - it's a lot of hard work (please note I'm making a distinction between hard and difficult, because while it also maybe difficult at times it's the workload I'm refering to rather than the degree of difficulty).
Composing a commisioned piece of music, naturally, also requires some initial inspiration, but remember that none of us are totally isolated from the "outside world", so we don't have to envision everything out of nothing every time ("man behøver ikke opfinde den dybe tallerken hver gang" - Danish proverb)... even though the renewal/original side (historically) of composition "demands" that there still some progress in the music we write. So getting ideas for sad/solemn music while being ecstatic yourself is not uncommon - nor the other way 'round. Reading the libretto of a play you're writing music for can give a lot of inspiration, as can a myriad of other things... and when inspiration gives up our intellect continues to broaden the material at hand...
"Writers/composersblock" is known to happen not too infrequently at times... as with a lot of other creative jobs.

 

[Jette]

Thanks Thomas

. It`s probably my lack of creativity/fantasy, that gives me such a hard time understanding, how you can make sad music while being ecstatic, but I`m fully aware of the fact that it`s hard work and not a magical thing

Jette

Btw I`m glad to hear that you are not totally isolated from the outside world

 

[corno]

Just thought I wanted to add this question to the thread:

What is your favorite way of composing - and if using a computer, which programs do you use?

For myself, as I'm not the most accomplished concertpianist ever, I use my computer for much of my music realisation and elaboration - sometimes "notational mistakes" occurs when I write the music, but it actually makes for good variations when working on a piece later on - for the most part making the music develop while being composed, not having a finite "result" before starting out.

As for computerprograms I've started out on Musicator, which I still use from time to time (a matter of habit I think) - but for the most of my professional work I use the notationprograms Finale and Sibelius (depending on if it's commisioned by someone needing one of the formats exclusively). Finale is, at the moment, my own choice.
Besides that I've played a little with Reason 4-5 years ago and now I'm in the midst (if you hadn't noticed) of looking at Cubase in order to expand my sequence-knowledge and utilizing the possibillities in all the nice samples found in Native Instruments Kontakt 2 player and the EastWest soundbanks.
Today I passed the site with Vienna Symphonic Library www.vsl.co.at - there are some really nice (and expensive) instrumentsamples... I love the soloviolin sample in the demo of the theme from Schindler's List by John Williams which you can find on the site - also some of the saxophone samples are really good!!

 

[Rune Vejby]

The computer definitely plays a big part when creating music - nicely illustrated by Thomas' post. There are loads of great software available.
When using Cubase you can find alot of nice VST plug-ins. For example a plug-in called "The Grand" which I described previously in this post. It contains over 1 Gigabyte (!!!) og samples from a grand piano, recorded in various velocities. It is magnificent and also quite user-friendly too. And speaking about user friendliness, that is really the essential, and difficult, part of working with music software. Alot of these programs are so complicated and it is apparently more or less impossible for the developers to make these prgorams (mostly sequencing programs) user friendly. Even though there sometimes are some nice tutorials it is almost a necessity to get another person, with the relevant knowlegde, to explain how the particular program works...

Personally I use a program called "Tracktion" to handle my VST instruments. It is by far the simplest and most user friendly program I have come across. Afterwards I transfer the song to Reason as I fancy this program when it comes to post-production, pre-mastering and export of audio.

So I guess it is a matter of combining the programs that you feel most comfortable with

 

[Frederik.Sjölund]

Great thread!
I can learn from this!

When i make music i usually just play around on the keyboard playing some instrument until i find something that sounds nice. I guess im a bit of an improviser-dude.
Then i add stuff to whatever it was i made and then i try to continue somehow.
My main problem though is that i find it hard to come up with a good continuation of what i just made. I generally have the problem that many of my pieces are too repetitive.
And also, i dont know anything about how to write notes and i dont know much piano-chords and no scales at all.
I just go for it usually. I play around until im satisfied with the result. However, i haven't really finished anything the way i would like to.

 

[Rune Vejby]

Well, Frederik, you can actually get a long way with improvisation.... I also use it alot, though primarily as a foundtation or inspiration for a track with additional, and more planned, sequences of music.
I know your problem about keeping "momentum" in the composition after the first sequences of melody have been composed - I guess that most composers faces that kind of challenge alot of times... There is probably no magic formula for solving this "problem" except hard work and constantly keeping your original idea in the back of your head

 

[corno]

The trick, if there is such a word for it, is study... study... and then study some more... - listen to music, learn to read the music - get an idea of what others have done - try to analyse the music in a way that fits your own need (no need for at lengthy theoretical analysis if all you need is an idea of how, for instance, to change the mood of a theme... go see what others have done and then copy it (it'll probably be more or less a "ripoff" at first but in time you'll get your own bearings) - Ever seen the film "Finding Forrester" with Sean Connery? if not, try it - though about writing, is in the same line of thought! really!

 

[Rune Vejby]

Thomas, with the risk of starting a discussion (not that it is a bad thing

) I would like to question that method of working with music. No doubt that music theory is a necessity for reaching a certain level of skill when it comes to composing, but the part about analyzing other tracks should be kept to an absolute minimum, in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, the reason we make music is because we got aquainted with a certain genre or even heard a particular piece that gave us the inspiration to compose ourselves. No one can disagree with that. And it is fine to gather inspiration from various composers and individual pieces of music, but when you actually sit down and analyze a piece of music, I think that is too much!
Music is basically about sound and feelings and not about small black figures (notes) on a paper. I would never be able to keep such a theoretical perspective towards composing - then I would rather sit by the piano and just try a million things before it works out exactly how I want it!

Theory, analysis and gathering of inspiration is fine, but REMEMBER that it is crucial to keep a certain amount of originality in order to really stand out as an artist.

This is not to be taken as a critsism of you, Thomas. Maybe I even misinterpreted your post or maybe we just compose in different ways

Anyway, I would always advise a new composer to start off by sitting at the piano (or whatever instrument he/she might play) and at least TRY to create an atmosphere of sound that appeals to the particular person's feelings and THEN one could look at other pieces of music - but only as a source of inspiration on an atmospheric/emotional level and not (or only to a very small extend) on a theoretical level!

Does it make any sense???

It's bit late so I'm not sure if I make myself perfectly clear...

Bedtime!

 

[corno]

I think you missed my intention here. The idea was to give mr. Sjölund some ways to get about going more into detail with his own music by studying others.
As to whether analysis of others music should be taken into the compositional process or not is a point of debate. Naturally you want to go for something unique (your own style) and besides copying others isn't the most interesting idea, but it sometimes helps in developing an ear for development in music.
I think it's a little naive to assume that good music only comes from total isolation and that any sort of theoretical entry into the field of composition should be handled most carefully - it doesn't really work that way - maybe in the ideal world where earning money and making a living isn't an object of concern. - Sometimes there are really long between "devine" inspiration, so if you're totally without any technical knowledge you'll be hardstruck to find any "exits" unless you stumple upon them by chance and are able to make them work for you.

Naturally one needs to find his/her own way in the (musical) world, but taking notice of how others have done in the past, doesn't subtract from aquiring your own goals. If listening to or looking at some music helps you understand your own music better and helps you develop ideas you wouldn't have thought of before because you either wasn't thinking of doing just that or never thought of it, I wouldn't think twice in commending that. - It's what YOU use the knowledge for that matters, not where the knowledge comes from - and seldomly knowledge comes from nothing at all.

 

[AM:PM]

Its interesting to hear how other people work. A large part of my songs are concieved in the car on my way to work or in the shower. The ideas are usually a riff or a vocal line. From there a songs plays in my head so I have to get it out. I play out a few notes on my midi-keyboard that correspond to the vocal arrangement or riff in my head. After that I do the drums and layout the bassline followed by piano: I write my first verse and chorus and mould my b-section after the newly penned chorus. The songs organic structure actually decides if am to have a break in the mid or just revert to the A- section. At this point, I can hear it all in my head i.e how the song will start and finish so the intro/outro comes by itself as well. I arrange it and listen to it a hell lot of times. Its important that the song is able to spark my fantasy in the direction of the lyrics - something I just call "feeling it". If I dont feel it, something has to be changed or I have to wait a few days and try again. When I feel the song, I do the vox and brushes up the song some.
I really dont do complex arrangements, so am able to do a whole song withing 5-10 hours. I believe in the KISS (keep it straight and simple) theory. A song for me has to have a chord progression thats not so odd but readily able to access any individuals music centre (if ever the brain has such a centre). just like in those ABBA's songs that always appeal though one is a sworn ABBA feind

. All my work is done on a sequencer- am not a skilled instrumentalist/solist so I dont even consider myself a musician

in the conventional way!
Hope I make sense

 

[Jette]

Yes it did make sense and thanks for explaining

Jette

 

[Gongchime]

I tend to write pieces in groups such as 13 pieces for a cd. So, I'll first write out all the possibilities of form that I want to work with so that there is a variety such as
Intro ABABCAB Outro

or Intro ABCABCABC Outro

or Intro ABCDBDCACABD Outro

After I have the forms established

then I determine section length. If a piece goes ABCABCABC is the A section 8,16,4 or 2 measures long? I'll go through several permutations so that there are a variety.

I'll also write in a variety of starting tempos usually above 100 beats per minute up to 160.

Next I decide where I want the melody to start on the down beat. That's usually only in one section of the pieces. In one piece, the melody will start on the downbeat in the A section, in a different piece the melody will start on the downbeat in the B section.

Next I put in the melodic rhythms for each section and determine where they should end optimally. In the "chorus/downbeat starting section it will end in a consonant sounding rhythmic position depending on the length of the phrase.

I also try to put in different phrase lengths either within a section or between sections.

As far as the actual notes of the melody, sometimes I plug in digital patterns that you might play on an instrument such as 12123234345 or 1234234534564567 or 13243546 or 2321343245435654 etc...

or I might use a number string from mathematics such as Avogadros number or pi etc...

or I'll roll dice or use a random number generator

or I'll work with motifs.

As far as development goes, I seem to prefer the retrograde inversion transposed so as to have a more unique sounding second theme. The mere retrograde or inversion sounds too similar and Bach has done them to death.

 

[sondance]

Thought I would pick up an older thread as it is such a great topic for music mongers. I will ramble a bit here as I have not settled on a method of composition. I just do not get to do enough and I can be quite an experimenter.

First of all I had to settle on my basic objective - I am a songwriter, not a musician or composer (in a formal sense). Songs for me have begun in many typical ways. I hear a tune bouncing around in my head and grab a guitar or piano and start working with it. Frequently a lyric phrase comes with it, often inspired by a ranging train of thought. The lyric suggests accents and rhythm. Then I work to create verses, chorus, bridges as they seem "right" for the song. Once in awhile there is a brawl between the lyrics and the melodies. Melodies like to create different phrasing than the lyrics may be demanding. In this case it can be helpful to try a meter change and see if the two can get along again. That can be tedious as it is not always fun to change a favorite lyric line for some recalcitrant melody, and changing a melody can take the whole song into complete new direction.

There have been many phrases, riffs, and sometimes entire lyrics that became like stones. They would not yield the progression of thought or melody that would allow me to finish the piece. There have been some that I was able to stitch together to make a more complete piece. Sometimes these had complimentary but independent major and minor melodies and sometimes a shift from minor to major of the same melody with the necessary shift to the chords. There have been times when I was "in search of a lost chord", trying every chord I know to support one note of the melody (usually a "passing" note), in and out of key. Occasionally there is a need to abandon a complete chord and use an octave or single interval to allow the melody and harmonies go where they need to go.

The guitar for me naturally drives a rhythm, generally from the chord and strum patterns. On the piano things open up and I have some pieces that are instrumental only. Frankly this took years of doodling and forcing myself to do things like play octaves and use my left hand. Although I am not looking for fluidity, I strive for the freedom to reach toward sounds I hear that are beyond my skill. If ever I could harness the ability to play what I can imagine, I think that would be wonderful, because it sure sounds good sometimes.

Sometimes I set other words to music. One was an excerpt from Longfellow's "Hiawatha" using a pentatonic structure for solo voice only. Another was a blues based progression on guitar (something like Clapton might play) over which I set the melody for a passage from scripture (Luke 1:68-79, also called the "Benedictus") to which I added a chorus and bridge. This had some interesting chord changes and the bridge really took to the words well. I'm not shy to include some obtuse lyrics or unexpected melodic/chord shift but in the end I look for real meaning to be developed. I do not subscribe to the theory that meanings are all relative. Nor do I look to create a lament that is without hope. Life is tough enough as it is. At the same time I recognize the human communication is a vast and mysterious plane.

I read years ago that Paul Simon would write out his melody first and then the bass line. Between the two the harmony and chord options would be explored to fill out the rest of the song. I do that at times also.

How do you compose?