confused about Notre-Dame's chamades

[smilingvox]

Hi. In the booklet of a CD of the 1867 Cavaille-Coll at Notre-Dame de Paris, the stoplist includes the 1965 Boisseau chamades and the chamades installed in the 1992 enlargement.

The other day, I read an article in OHS's Tracker on this instrument. It said that Cochereau-era additions were removed in 1992, plus a photo of the facade, from 1992, showed only three ranks of chamades.

What happened? Were the Boisseau chamades removed, or are they still there and the 1992 chamades are mounted inside the case?

 

[cymbaleviii]

Notre Dame Chamades

Hi. The Chamades had pipes added at the bottom and were made full length, also increasing the scales.

 

[acc]

The three chamades (8', 4', and 2'/16') built in 1965 by Robert Boisseau are still there, but were significantly revoiced in the 1992 restoration by Jean-Loup Boisseau (Robert's son) and Bertrand Cattiaux: it is now possible to sit at the console without earplugs.

Two additional chamades (8' and 4') in "Cavaillé-Coll style" were added in 1992.

So we now have a total of five chamade stops, but I don't know which is which among the horizontal pipes sticking out in front of the case. Günther Lade's monography on Notre-Dame will certainly contain detailed answers, but so far, only volume 1 has appeared, convering history up to the year 1900.

 

[smilingvox]

Years ago, I heard an LP of Pierre Cochereau playing the Finale of Louis Vierne's Symphony No. 4. Pierre used the Boisseau chamades at the very end. It sounded like fingernails on the chalkboard amplified. I was like, "What the hell was THAT?!" (I knew what it was, but, in recent years, I think they sounded a bit ludicrous, rather than impactful)

Glad they did something about it. If I built and sold organs, I, personally, would be very careful about the inclusion of horizontal reeds in a tonal design.

A couple of examples, I especially like, are the State Trumpet at St. John the Divine, NY and the Royal Trumpets at St. Paul's, London. Interestingly, St. Paul's were built by Mander and they're magnificent, but the horizontal trumpet at Princeton University Chapel, also by Mander, sounds like a toy trumpet, especially next to the Skinner Tuba Mirabilis.

Alot has to do with the acoustics as well as the voicing.

 

[Thierry59]

The three chamades (8', 4', and 2'/16') built in 1965 by Robert Boisseau are still there, but were significantly revoiced in the 1992 restoration by Jean-Loup Boisseau (Robert's son) and Bertrand Cattiaux: it is now possible to sit at the console without earplugs.

Two additional chamades (8' and 4') in "Cavaillé-Coll style" were added in 1992.

So we now have a total of five chamade stops, but I don't know which is which among the horizontal pipes sticking out in front of the case. Günther Lade's monography on Notre-Dame will certainly contain detailed answers, but so far, only volume 1 has appeared, convering history up to the year 1900.

At the end Latry adds the so-called "Cochereau's chamades" to demonstrate the difference with the ACC-oriented ones. I personnaly think that there is still a need for earplugs at the loft except if you already deaf!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfEtw7i0q0

 

[smilingvox]

At the end Latry adds the so-called "Cochereau's chamades" to demonstrate the difference with the ACC-oriented ones. I personnaly think that there is still a need for earplugs at the loft except if you already deaf!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVfEtw7i0q0

WHA-A-A-AT???!!!

Sorry.:grin: Couldn't resist.

Is this a recording by O. Latry you're referring to? Or were you there to hear him?

I have a double CD set he did in the 80s on Vierne. He certainly didn't shirk from using the Boisseaus.

 

[Thierry59]

WHA-A-A-AT???!!!

Sorry.:grin: Couldn't resist.

Is this a recording by O. Latry you're referring to? Or were you there to hear him?

I have a double CD set he did in the 80s on Vierne. He certainly didn't shirk from using the Boisseaus.

I'm refering to what I heard with my own ears. He gives a demonstration of the organ to people who did'nt know nothing about the different stops and their sound. Is it enough??

 

[acc]

I have a double CD set [Latry] did in the 80s on Vierne. He certainly didn't shirk from using the Boisseaus.

Indeed, he did not. Although, as he says in the booklet, "Wherever it seemed necessary, I have added the 8-foot (and 4-foot) reeds 'en chamade' that Vierne would have wished for, even though they do not quite correspond to those of the organ of Saint-Sernin in Toulouse which he had considered as a model. The tutti is used only rarely."

 

[pcnd5584]

Hi. The Chamades had pipes added at the bottom and were made full length, also increasing the scales.

I believe that this is incorrect.

The chamades were always full length (Trompette 8ft., Clairon 4ft. and Regal at 16ft/2ft.*). The Récit Bombarde 16ft had a half length bass, which was replaced at the time of the 1990 - 92 restoration with full length pipes.

The Boisseau chamades were augmented (and re-distributed) with two further chamade ranks (at 8ft. and 4ft.), which were modelled on those supplied by cavaillé-Coll to his instrument at S. Sernin, Toulouse.



* However, the drawstops were not engraved thus, simply 'Chamade 8', etc.

 

[pcnd5584]

The three chamades (8', 4', and 2'/16') built in 1965 by Robert Boisseau are still there, but were significantly revoiced in the 1992 restoration by Jean-Loup Boisseau (Robert's son) and Bertrand Cattiaux: it is now possible to sit at the console without earplugs.

I am fairly certain that they were not revoiced - but they were re-winded (to their detriment). They are now a little unsteady in their speech, something which was never apparent during Cochereau's tenure.

Incidentally, is is possible to sit at the console without earplugs - but undesirable. The restored organ is, if anything, louder than its predecessor.

 

[pcnd5584]

Years ago, I heard an LP of Pierre Cochereau playing the Finale of Louis Vierne's Symphony No. 4. Pierre used the Boisseau chamades at the very end. It sounded like fingernails on the chalkboard amplified. I was like, "What the hell was THAT?!" (I knew what it was, but, in recent years, I think they sounded a bit ludicrous, rather than impactful)

I disagree - I think that they sound superb; certainly nothing like fingernails on a blackboard.

A couple of examples, I especially like, are the State Trumpet at St. John the Divine, NY and the Royal Trumpets at St. Paul's, London.
Alot has to do with the acoustics as well as the voicing.

I agree regarding the acoustics. However, I dislke greatly both examples which you cite, particularly those at Saint Paul's Cathedral, London. They are so thin they sound more like a giant harpsichord than any type of trumpet. The State Trumpet I have only heard on recordings and, recently, on YouTube (the recording was of good quality). Personally, it did nothing for me.

However, beauty is in the ear...

 

[mathetes1963]

A lot of sense in the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"...

 

[acc]

The restored organ is, if anything, louder than its predecessor.

Well, then, it seems that many things are in the ear, indeed: mine tells me quite the opposite.

 

[pcnd5584]

Well, then, it seems that many things are in the ear, indeed: mine tells me quite the opposite.

Certainly from the console, the restored instrument is now so loud that it actually became almost unbearable when Léfébvre added the Boisseau chamades, followed by the 1992 ranks during one of his improvisations.

 

[mathetes1963]

Never mind what it sounds like from the console, I just pity the poor b*stard who has to tune those things...

 

[smilingvox]

I disagree - I think that they sound superb; certainly nothing like fingernails on a blackboard.

I agree regarding the acoustics. However, I dislke greatly both examples which you cite, particularly those at Saint Paul's Cathedral, London. They are so thin they sound more like a giant harpsichord than any type of trumpet. The State Trumpet I have only heard on recordings and, recently, on YouTube (the recording was of good quality). Personally, it did nothing for me.



However, beauty is in the ear...

Recordings offer only part of the true sound. When in NY, go to a service in which they use the organ (St. John the Divine), stand under the State Trumpet during a postlude (usually used then) and tell us if that doesn't do something.

To hear a good balance between it and the main organ, go to the Nave, about the second or third bay back from the dome.

And, about the disagreement about the Boisseau chamades..... No hurt feelings here. We're all entitled to our opinions.

 

[acc]

And, about the disagreement about the Boisseau chamades..... No hurt feelings here.

Seconded. :cheers:

 

[pcnd5584]

Hi. The Chamades had pipes added at the bottom and were made full length, also increasing the scales.

No, this is incorrect. Please see my post below.

 

[pcnd5584]

The three chamades (8', 4', and 2'/16') built in 1965 by Robert Boisseau are still there, but were significantly revoiced in the 1992 restoration by Jean-Loup Boisseau (Robert's son) and Bertrand Cattiaux: it is now possible to sit at the console without earplugs.

Two additional chamades (8' and 4') in "Cavaillé-Coll style" were added in 1992.

So we now have a total of five chamade stops, but I don't know which is which among the horizontal pipes sticking out in front of the case. Günther Lade's monography on Notre-Dame will certainly contain detailed answers, but so far, only volume 1 has appeared, convering history up to the year 1900.

To the best of my knowlegde (and David Briggs agrees with me), the Boisseau Chamades were not revoiced at the time of the 1990-92 restoration. Howver, they were re-winded (to their detriment; they are now a little less stable). For the record, in the absence of the second volume of Günther Lade's monography, every other account of the rebuild which I have read also states that the Boisseau Chamades were retained tonally as they were prior to the restoration.

The two additional Chamades (8ft. and 4ft.) were made, specifically as exact copies (aside from the hand of the original voicer) of those on the G.O. of the superb Cavaillé-Coll instrument in the Basilica of S. Sernin, Toulouse.

With regard to earplugs - this is definitely incorrect. I have been in the loft on a number of occasions, either turning pages for DJB, or standing next to Philippe Léfébvre and I can assure you that the tutti is still staggeringly loud - even without either set of Chamades. When these were added, I discovered that the human ear can 'distort', in a similar manner to the speakers on a home stereo....

 

[Corno Dolce]

Hi pcnd,

If my memory serves me, last time I visited NDdeP and Maitre Latry I noticed that the 2'/16' was titled "Regals" - Could those horizontal resonators represent regals on steroids?:lol: Help me out here.............