Cavaille-Coll's proposal for St. Peter's, Vatican City

[smilingvox]

Forgive me if my format for this list is less than conventional. I wanted to be careful of the am't of space. Each division is sub-divided into Jeux de Fonds and Jeux de Combinaisons

Grand-Orgue (1)

16': Montre, Bourdon
8': Montre, Diapason, Flute Harmonique, Bourdon, Viole de Gambe, Dulciana
5 1/3' Grosse Quinte
4': Prestant, Octave, Flute
-
2 2/3' Quinte
2' Doublette
Grande Fourniture IV, Fourniture III, Grosse Cymbale V, Cymbale IV
16' Basson
8': Trompette Harmonique, Basson
4' Clairon

Grand-Choeur (1)

16': Basse Acoustique, Grosse Flute Harmonique
8': Diapason, Flute Harmonique, Violoncelle, Unda Maris
4': Prestant, Flute Octaviante
2' Octavin
-
Grand Cornett V (8')
Sesquialtera III (8')
16' Tuba Magna, 8' Tuba Mirabilis, 5 1/3' Quinte Trompette, 4' Clairon
2' Clairon Doublette

Bombardes (2)

16': Principale Basse, Quintaton
8': Flute Harmonique, Flute Conique, Bourdon, Keraulophone
4': Octave, Grosse Flute
-
3 1/5' Grosse Tierce, 2 2/3' Nazard, 2 2/7' Septieme
2' Octavin
Grand Cornett V (16')
16' Bombarde, 8' Trompette, 4' Clairon

Positif (3)

16': Violon Basse, Bourdon
8': Diapason, Flute Traversiere, Cor de Nuit, Salicional, Voix Angelique
4': Flute Douce, Dulciana
-
2 2/3' Quinte
2' Doublette
Plein Jeu V (8')
16' Cor d'Harmonie
8' Trompette Harmonique, Basson et Hautbois, Cromorne

Recit Expressif (4)

16': Bourdon, Corno Dolce
8': Flute Harmonique, Flute a Pavillon, Viole de Gambe, Voix Celeste
4': Flute Octaviante, Dulciana
-
4' Octave
2' Flageolet
8': Musette, Voix Humaine
16' Basson, 8' Trompette Harmonique, 4' Clairon Harmonique
Cornett V (8')

Solo Expressif (5)

16': Sousbasse, Flute Conique
8': Diapason, Flute Traversiere Harmonique, Quintaton
4' Flute Octaviante
-
2' Doublette
2 2/3' Nazard, 1 3/5' Tierce, 1 1/3' Larigot, 1 1/7' Septieme
1' Piccolo
16' Cor Anglais, 8' Clarinette
8' Trompette Harmonique, 4' Clairon Harmonique

Pedale

32': Principale Basse, Montre, Gros Bourdon, Basse Acoustique
16': Grosse Flute, Contre-Basse, Violonbasse, Sousbasse
10 2/3' Grosse Quinte
8': Diapason, Grosse Flute, Violoncelle, Bourdon
-
6 2/5' Grand Tierce, 5 1/3' Grosse Quinte, 4 4/7' Septieme
4' Octave
32' Contre-Bombarde, 16' Bombarde, 10 2/3' Quinte Bombarde
8' Trompette, 4' Clairon

Proposed in 1875. A. C-C built a model of the organ case and ended up being as large as a positive organ 1:10 scale.

 

[dll927]

That would have been some organ. Too bad they didn't take him up on it. From what I understand, St. Peter's has a wimpy little organ that barely does justice to much of anything.

 

[Krummhorn]

. . . From what I understand, St. Peter's has a wimpy little organ that barely does justice to much of anything.

I've played the organ at St. Peter's, and to me it is not 'wimpy' or little by any means. It's a IV/102 Walcker built in 1895. The organ pipes are in two opposing chambers in the transepts of the nave. There is a horizontal trumpet in the specification, but it is not exposed to view.

There is a portable 3 manual console that can be connected to the main organ at several points inside and outside the basilica for special events.

 

[dll927]

Apparently I stand corrected. I was under the impression the organ there was not much count. 1895?? Somebody must have been misleading me. I've seen a few other cases of recent re-builds with that feature of plugging the console in from different places. Ought to be quite convenient in some circumstances.

What is the difference between the French "Montre" and Diapason or Principal? Aren't they pretty much the same thing?

I once downloaded a French organ specification where I apparently hit the "translate" button, and some of what came out was pretty laughable. It seems that "bourdon" means "bumble-bee" in French. Never know what may be up there in those pipe chambers. And since Bourdons are usually wooden pipes, how about termites??

 

[dll927]

Apparently it has been a while since Krummhorn played the St. Peter's organ. I finally did what I should have done to begin with -- I Googled "Organ, St. Peter's, Vatican". According to that last word, Wikipedia, the current organ was built in 1954 and 1962 by one Ditta Giovanni Tamborini, and the article contains a stop list -- in Italian, of course. It doesn't say how much of previous organs is included in the current one.

Hopefully, the organist understands Italian. He is James Goettsche, and he comes from the great Italian town of Omaha, Nebraska. So Benny and his crew must have imported their organist. That could have ticked off a few locals.

There are also descriptions of other organs around the Vatican, including the one in the Sistine Chapel. So this should bring things up-to-date.

 

[smilingvox]

Unfortunately, the pope, at that time, never responded to Cavaille-Coll's proposal. It would have been AWESOME to hear this in St. Peter's acoustics.

A friend of mine tells me that the organ used there has like 80 ranks, but is on wheels. The basilica is so large, that even an organ of that size would have to be rolled to wherever it's needed. I'm thinking that this is the Tamborini, but I could be wrong.

The Diapason can come in different types, but the type I'm most familiar with is the English, or American, turn-of-the-century type. I think that the mouth of the Montre has a lower cut-up than the Diapason, and there is little or no nicking, whereas the Diapason has pronounced nicking.

As for sound, I've found that some of Cavaille-Coll's Montres are pretty comparable to some early 20th-Century American Diapasons. C-C, typically, voiced his on about 4 or 5 inches. The Diapasons, I know (and prefer, although some of my favorite organs are C-C), range from 5" to 25".

That's my input on that for now.

 

[BearAZ]

More Info about Walcker at St. Peters

I've played the organ at St. Peter's, and to me it is not 'wimpy' or little by any means. It's a IV/102 Walcker built in 1895. The organ pipes are in two opposing chambers in the transepts of the nave. There is a horizontal trumpet in the specification, but it is not exposed to view.

There is a portable 3 manual console that can be connected to the main organ at several points inside and outside the basilica for special events.

A discussion came up recently in a Facebook Organists' group about the organ(s) at St. Peter's, specifically the C-C and Mutin specs, but in Googling I found your comment above. I also found this:

From The Musical Times, October 1, 1895:
A beautifully constructed organ destined by Papal order for St Peter's Church in Rome is just now on view at the factory of Messrs Walker and Co organ builders of Ludwigsburg The instrument is constructed in such a way that despite its weight of 7,500 kilos it may be moved with the greatest ease by a single person from one part of the church to another Amongst other special features it possesses two solo registers or organs supplied with an extra high pressure of wind and which in view of the gigantic proportions of the edifice for which they are intended are expected to produce a most powerful effect.

I don't know if the above refers only to a movable console, or more. I can't find anything more online about the Walcker instrument, except references to what is currently there being by Italian builders! Any leads and further info you could provide would be most appreciated.

 

[Corno Dolce]

A discussion came up recently in a Facebook Organists' group about the organ(s) at St. Peter's, specifically the C-C and Mutin specs, but in Googling I found your comment above. I also found this:

From The Musical Times, October 1, 1895:
A beautifully constructed organ destined by Papal order for St Peter's Church in Rome is just now on view at the factory of Messrs Walker and Co organ builders of Ludwigsburg The instrument is constructed in such a way that despite its weight of 7,500 kilos it may be moved with the greatest ease by a single person from one part of the church to another Amongst other special features it possesses two solo registers or organs supplied with an extra high pressure of wind and which in view of the gigantic proportions of the edifice for which they are intended are expected to produce a most powerful effect.

I don't know if the above refers only to a movable console, or more. I can't find anything more online about the Walcker instrument, except references to what is currently there being by Italian builders! Any leads and further info you could provide would be most appreciated.

Hi,

I found this spec on the website of Walcker:

http://www.walcker.com/opus/0001_0999/0732-rom-st-peter.html

After looking through the spec sheet I noticed a Stentor Floete 8' and a Stentor Gamba 8' - My hunch is that these are the "High Pressure Stops" designed to fill te Basilica. Among other things it is not only wind pressure but wind quantity that go into the equation of making a pipe to sound...

 

[FinnViking]

The main organ, 1962 Tamburini (87 stops), is certainly not moveable, but there is also a small (11 stop) Walcker organ from 1980 that is moveable.

 

[BearAZ]

Thank you!

Apparently I did not dig deeply enough on the Walcker site. Thank-you for the link! It certainly appears that this is the same organ as described in the Musical Times article I quoted. It's not particularly large, but was it really movable? I strongly suspect that the console, only, was movable.

Hi,

I found this spec on the website of Walcker:

http://www.walcker.com/opus/0001_0999/0732-rom-st-peter.html

After looking through the spec sheet I noticed a Stentor Floete 8' and a Stentor Gamba 8' - My hunch is that these are the "High Pressure Stops" designed to fill te Basilica. Among other things it is not only wind pressure but wind quantity that go into the equation of making a pipe to sound...

 

[BearAZ]

Please just ignore that bit about an 1895 movable console. I've not had enough coffee yet, apparently, this morning I'm still puzzling, however, over their claim that it was movable by one person. It would also appear that Tamburini kept the Walcker case, and even made a twin for it, no?

 

[BearAZ]

Apparently I stand corrected. I was under the impression the organ there was not much count. 1895?? Somebody must have been misleading me. I've seen a few other cases of recent re-builds with that feature of plugging the console in from different places. Ought to be quite convenient in some circumstances.

What is the difference between the French "Montre" and Diapason or Principal? Aren't they pretty much the same thing?

Specifically, a Montre is a foundational stop that's displayed as part of the case. You see them in organ specs all the time, in enclosed divisions and such, which makes no sense.