Can bands still 'SELL OUT' ??
- Thread starter nicmead
- Start date
In my neck of the woods it does. I am a frequent volunteer usher at our local university's performing hall - a 2500 seat hall - and very often, bands when appearing are playing to a packed house. Same is true of the larger orchestras and lots of other venues.
People, at least in my region, still want to see and hear these musicians and they all flock to most of the venues offered.
People, at least in my region, still want to see and hear these musicians and they all flock to most of the venues offered.
Soubasse
New member
I'm attempting to qualify nicmeads post with his use of the term "selling out" and whether he's referring to a full house at a venue (as per Krummhorn's post), or a band "betraying" their initial integrity in order to gain wider appeal, and just generally going with what's popular.
An example of the latter might be the difference between fans of Genesis pre or post Peter Gabriel. Many die-hard fans of "early" Genesis see the band as "selling out" from around the Invisible Touch album (or some even earlier from And Then There Were Three) due to the by then very radio friendly, "commercial" sounds rather than the sound that made them the Prog Rock stalwarts that they clearly were in the '70s.
An example of the latter might be the difference between fans of Genesis pre or post Peter Gabriel. Many die-hard fans of "early" Genesis see the band as "selling out" from around the Invisible Touch album (or some even earlier from And Then There Were Three) due to the by then very radio friendly, "commercial" sounds rather than the sound that made them the Prog Rock stalwarts that they clearly were in the '70s.
teddy
Duckmeister
Hello nicmead and welcome to the forum.
I interpret your thread as a change to make the band more commercial. I know of plenty of small local band who have done this to keep alive. The birthday parties pay the costs, leaving them to play the sort of music they really want to in the less well paying venues. Also remember that one mans meat is another mans poison. What might Pink Floyd have ended up sounding like if things had worked out differently. Some people will never sell out, we have some one on the forum like that, but if you are not successful do you then give up. or give the people what they want?
teddy
I interpret your thread as a change to make the band more commercial. I know of plenty of small local band who have done this to keep alive. The birthday parties pay the costs, leaving them to play the sort of music they really want to in the less well paying venues. Also remember that one mans meat is another mans poison. What might Pink Floyd have ended up sounding like if things had worked out differently. Some people will never sell out, we have some one on the forum like that, but if you are not successful do you then give up. or give the people what they want?
teddy
nicmead
New member
it's an interesting subject - just to clarify i am discussing the 'selling out' of a bands integrity not their gigs (sorry if it was unclear).
I know that bands and artists are struggling to sell music so i cant blame them for sourcing new ways to make money. but in my eyes there has to be a line.
for instance the iggy pop car insurance adverts never made sense to me - especially as the company refused to insure musicians?!?
what would your definition of selling out be?
I know that bands and artists are struggling to sell music so i cant blame them for sourcing new ways to make money. but in my eyes there has to be a line.
for instance the iggy pop car insurance adverts never made sense to me - especially as the company refused to insure musicians?!?
what would your definition of selling out be?
teddy
Duckmeister
Terrible hard decision to make nic. I suppose you have to ask the question - How badly do you need the money? Integrity is a great thing, but anyone who has , or has had children knows that integrity will not put shoes on their feet or food in their stomachs. You might also ask the question regarding the Iggy Pop matter, whose integrity is really being jeopardised. Iggys or the insurance company's. It is often said that strippers are being taken advantage of because they are being ogled by men, but they usually take the stance that they are taking advantage of the men because they are selling an illusion. And in the final analysis music is a form of entertainment (ignoring religious music for the moment), and you can only entertain people by giving then what they want. If you are trying to give then something they do not want, you are not entertaining them. Thats the time to go into your bedroom and just play to yourself. (which is what I do because I am a crap guitarist, but I enjoy it)
Very inter sting thread. I would be interested to hear other opinions.
teddy
Very inter sting thread. I would be interested to hear other opinions.
teddy
John Watt
Member
That's the only thing I like about modern digital recording technology.
You can sell out yourself from the comfort of your own home, or studio.
I see Phil Collins as progressing musically, instrumentally and song-writing wise,
as part of his musical journey from progressive, stoner rock, to an r'n'b influence.
I didn't see that coming.
I also didn't see him as being half of Peter Gabriels vocal output,
coming out singing the same after Peter left Genesis.
It's hard to believe Phil is now a non-musician, becoming an American unCivil War collectible enthusiast.
You can sell out yourself from the comfort of your own home, or studio.
I see Phil Collins as progressing musically, instrumentally and song-writing wise,
as part of his musical journey from progressive, stoner rock, to an r'n'b influence.
I didn't see that coming.
I also didn't see him as being half of Peter Gabriels vocal output,
coming out singing the same after Peter left Genesis.
It's hard to believe Phil is now a non-musician, becoming an American unCivil War collectible enthusiast.
thirdcreed
New member
If you have some kind of musical ethos, then it can be betrayed.
In today's musical climate different "ethos" are used in different genres to define an image. Genres come pre-packaged with a value system (complentary with clothing, art, friends, etc...) Hence we have the More-Punk-Than-Thou crowd and the More-Emo-Than-Thou crowd...all trying to provide some arbitrary morality to a group of people who otherwise have nothing. We have more sub-cultures now then we need, most of which have impossibly thin taste, and are only friends with those whose musical value system matches exactly.
In such a climate, you could hardly expect someone not to "betray" their original ethos, since their original ethos was a pile of arbitrart conventions, sprinkled with a liberal amount of teen angst. The music industry want's to be able to say "Oh, indie-folk...that's on aisle 9" because industry needs categories. They'll stuff an artist in a ridiculous pigeon hole and seal it up with the fear of being called a "Sell-out".
If I want to perform something truly original and different, I won't have a venue for it, because everybody's at their favorite red-dirt country bar (whatever the heck that is) or at their favorite neo-hardcore-dub-club (or whatever).
You can't sell out when there's no art only industry, and if anyone hasn't sold out we sure as heck haven't heard of them.
In today's musical climate different "ethos" are used in different genres to define an image. Genres come pre-packaged with a value system (complentary with clothing, art, friends, etc...) Hence we have the More-Punk-Than-Thou crowd and the More-Emo-Than-Thou crowd...all trying to provide some arbitrary morality to a group of people who otherwise have nothing. We have more sub-cultures now then we need, most of which have impossibly thin taste, and are only friends with those whose musical value system matches exactly.
In such a climate, you could hardly expect someone not to "betray" their original ethos, since their original ethos was a pile of arbitrart conventions, sprinkled with a liberal amount of teen angst. The music industry want's to be able to say "Oh, indie-folk...that's on aisle 9" because industry needs categories. They'll stuff an artist in a ridiculous pigeon hole and seal it up with the fear of being called a "Sell-out".
If I want to perform something truly original and different, I won't have a venue for it, because everybody's at their favorite red-dirt country bar (whatever the heck that is) or at their favorite neo-hardcore-dub-club (or whatever).
You can't sell out when there's no art only industry, and if anyone hasn't sold out we sure as heck haven't heard of them.
John Watt
Member
That's quite a screed, thirdcreed. I can read exactly what you mean.
I'd like to stress my agreement with what you've typed, what the industry has become.
But it gets more personal than that, taking your music out in bands and to the public.
What if you're a non-smoker, non-drinker, even a vegetarian, and want to travel like that?
You're not going to blend in with the rock crowd, even the guys in your band.
That's when angst rubs up against addiction. And there's lots of that for sale.
I'd like to stress my agreement with what you've typed, what the industry has become.
But it gets more personal than that, taking your music out in bands and to the public.
What if you're a non-smoker, non-drinker, even a vegetarian, and want to travel like that?
You're not going to blend in with the rock crowd, even the guys in your band.
That's when angst rubs up against addiction. And there's lots of that for sale.
nicmead
New member
@thirdcreed - so no music or artist is original? of course there has to be influence from an outside source otherwise no one would be creative minded.
@teddy - i agree that bands need to make money to survive - its their job. but what i cant help wondering is do they really think about their fans before venturing into these deals or is it purely just for the money?
Obviously different genres have different 'rules' for these kinds of actions. for instance i consider most pop acts to have sold out before even making it on the scene, because they have to. But a metal band on the other hand would have to think very carefully before any commercial integration due to the loyalty of the fan base.
Out of interest, what are all of your favorite genres, it would be interesting to see if with genre, the concept of selling out was distorted.
@teddy - i agree that bands need to make money to survive - its their job. but what i cant help wondering is do they really think about their fans before venturing into these deals or is it purely just for the money?
Obviously different genres have different 'rules' for these kinds of actions. for instance i consider most pop acts to have sold out before even making it on the scene, because they have to. But a metal band on the other hand would have to think very carefully before any commercial integration due to the loyalty of the fan base.
Out of interest, what are all of your favorite genres, it would be interesting to see if with genre, the concept of selling out was distorted.
John Watt
Member
There is a difference between selling and selling out.
You can't put down all pop artists by saying pop is just selling out.
Pop is what becomes popular, and what music matches its' application, like raves and electronica.
You don't hear symphonies being played at discos for the dancers,
but you don't hear symphonies being called not selling out. They're just not danceable.
Expectatations of the fans can cover anyone from a serious audiophile to a crazed attention seeker.
But if you want to put your career up there to where a whim of another can alter your reality,
go for it.
You can't put down all pop artists by saying pop is just selling out.
Pop is what becomes popular, and what music matches its' application, like raves and electronica.
You don't hear symphonies being played at discos for the dancers,
but you don't hear symphonies being called not selling out. They're just not danceable.
Expectatations of the fans can cover anyone from a serious audiophile to a crazed attention seeker.
But if you want to put your career up there to where a whim of another can alter your reality,
go for it.
thirdcreed
New member
@John Watt
Couldn't agree more. Music has many functions, and moving from one function to another can hardly be called "selling out".
@nicmead
Could you possibly clarify your statement, I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you might be misunderstanding my argument.
I may be being a bit overdramatic with the last statement, but I do think that there is a serious lack of originality, caused by the "divide, classify, and codify into lifestyle" way the music industry has seperated everything.
The essence of selling out is trading artistic inegrity for success, I guess my point is that "integrity" no longer has any real meaning. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that it has many meanings, one for each razor-thin subgenre.
Perhaps if we are to make any progress we should define what we mean when we ust the phrase "to sell-out"
Couldn't agree more. Music has many functions, and moving from one function to another can hardly be called "selling out".
@nicmead
Could you possibly clarify your statement, I'm not sure what you mean. It sounds like you might be misunderstanding my argument.
I may be being a bit overdramatic with the last statement, but I do think that there is a serious lack of originality, caused by the "divide, classify, and codify into lifestyle" way the music industry has seperated everything.
The essence of selling out is trading artistic inegrity for success, I guess my point is that "integrity" no longer has any real meaning. Maybe it would be more accurate to say that it has many meanings, one for each razor-thin subgenre.
Perhaps if we are to make any progress we should define what we mean when we ust the phrase "to sell-out"
John Watt
Member
I'm with you on selling out, but what about buying in?
That's what brought down the rock music scene, I think.
Everyone's always getting the newest piece of equipment,
but playing the same old hard rock riffs with the same old partying.
It's still hard for me, a child of the sixties, to see technology trumping human activity.
That's what brought down the rock music scene, I think.
Everyone's always getting the newest piece of equipment,
but playing the same old hard rock riffs with the same old partying.
It's still hard for me, a child of the sixties, to see technology trumping human activity.
nicmead
New member
I disagree that pop is whats popular because of its strict conventions in the modern music industry. What i meant by the pop artists selling out was the fact that they lose most/all of their creative input/original style/musical style from day one, if they didnt they wouldnt be successful in that genre.
Its not necessarily selling out for money is selling out that ambition to become the best from their own talents/style/music etc instead of being glammed up/have no creative decisions in the writing processes and no say in their target demographic.
But to filter all of this to one statement of selling out mine would be along the lines of what you suggested Thirdcreed.
"to trade artistic and musical integrity to fast track up the success ladder"
it is very hard to define as every case is different, for instance leaving behind original fans to acquire larger audiences would also be classed in my book as selling out.
Why did i even start this debate its so confusing to get my words out the way i want!! lol
Its not necessarily selling out for money is selling out that ambition to become the best from their own talents/style/music etc instead of being glammed up/have no creative decisions in the writing processes and no say in their target demographic.
But to filter all of this to one statement of selling out mine would be along the lines of what you suggested Thirdcreed.
"to trade artistic and musical integrity to fast track up the success ladder"
it is very hard to define as every case is different, for instance leaving behind original fans to acquire larger audiences would also be classed in my book as selling out.
Why did i even start this debate its so confusing to get my words out the way i want!! lol
thirdcreed
New member
Let me start a germ of definition and see if we can improve on it.
Sacrificing credibility for success
Credibility being essentially "An artist's trustworthiness, or lack of trustworthiness insofar as they are identical to the image and ideologies they project"
Both those definitions probably need help, but it's a start.
Certainly by this definition, a pop group would be incapable of selling themselves out, because they would have almost no credibility in the first place. Unless they're very upfront about there place in the musical universe as making silly fun dance music.
Sacrificing credibility for success
Credibility being essentially "An artist's trustworthiness, or lack of trustworthiness insofar as they are identical to the image and ideologies they project"
Both those definitions probably need help, but it's a start.
Certainly by this definition, a pop group would be incapable of selling themselves out, because they would have almost no credibility in the first place. Unless they're very upfront about there place in the musical universe as making silly fun dance music.
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teddy
Duckmeister
Once again I wrote a long piece - and deleted it. I hate laptops.
One artist who never sold out is Eric Clapton. He just loved what he did. Anyone who saw him play, especially when younger, had to notice he could not keep his hands off the thing he loved the most. Between numbers and during announcements he was constantly running his hand over the strings, quietly cording to himself. When something did not work out, or the band was falling apart - as with Cream- he just went back to his roots and started again. His music took priority over everything, even when drink or drugs were taking a toll on his private life. A musician to respect.
teddy
One artist who never sold out is Eric Clapton. He just loved what he did. Anyone who saw him play, especially when younger, had to notice he could not keep his hands off the thing he loved the most. Between numbers and during announcements he was constantly running his hand over the strings, quietly cording to himself. When something did not work out, or the band was falling apart - as with Cream- he just went back to his roots and started again. His music took priority over everything, even when drink or drugs were taking a toll on his private life. A musician to respect.
teddy
John Watt
Member
I'm noticing, through a slight review, that heavy metal has been objectified a few times, to no response.
It's been typed that heavy metal has a loyal fan base, and that heavy metal artists, especially,
have to worry about being seen as selling out. And the term distortion has been used only once,
in reference to what musical distortion a pop artist might go through to keep selling out.
That is enough heavy metal input to warrant comment, for me. Let's see.
Heavy metal is distortion, originally 9-volt battery distortion.
And that loyal audience, what modern pop artists might call branding, if anything,
transcends ordinary musical appreciation and enables fans to share a similar social experience.
I see metal fans as being more specific, if not demanding, then needing, in their choice of metal.
But then, when I first began to hear heavy metal bands, more of an effect on me than hearing screamo,
I thought the term "heavy mental" was a nice riff offa that.
Even though I learned a song off the first Black Sabbath album, with a drummer down the street,
I never thought they were heavy metal, lots of droning fuzz rock bands out there already.
I hope this comes across as some kind of metal muscle. This could get rough.
I think heavy metal bands sell out the most. They start off quieter than they want to be,
not even achieving their musical identity, until they are headlining major festivals, in their own name.
They ignore human and earth traditions, all that symphonic and acoustic music and sounds, just to mercilessly
blast sound at physical levels, and pack a hot, arena or stadium crowd to enable crowd surfing or indulge in dramatic security.
I see this huge plunge into total electronics, what the sound of the band is, as not selling out,
but confining yourself to very limited electronic parameters.
Grind-core, factory, screamo, death-metal, psycho-delic and other genres of heavy metal,
need not worry about my estimation here, directed at heavy metal.
But that's so... so old.
And besides, even if Steppenwolf, who first used the term "heavy metal", came from less than a hundred miles away from here,
and wanted to ride down here for a visit, it's too snowy out right now, and you'll never catch me on a motorcycle in the winter.
That's white-out-rock, a snow-blind killer.
It's been typed that heavy metal has a loyal fan base, and that heavy metal artists, especially,
have to worry about being seen as selling out. And the term distortion has been used only once,
in reference to what musical distortion a pop artist might go through to keep selling out.
That is enough heavy metal input to warrant comment, for me. Let's see.
Heavy metal is distortion, originally 9-volt battery distortion.
And that loyal audience, what modern pop artists might call branding, if anything,
transcends ordinary musical appreciation and enables fans to share a similar social experience.
I see metal fans as being more specific, if not demanding, then needing, in their choice of metal.
But then, when I first began to hear heavy metal bands, more of an effect on me than hearing screamo,
I thought the term "heavy mental" was a nice riff offa that.
Even though I learned a song off the first Black Sabbath album, with a drummer down the street,
I never thought they were heavy metal, lots of droning fuzz rock bands out there already.
I hope this comes across as some kind of metal muscle. This could get rough.
I think heavy metal bands sell out the most. They start off quieter than they want to be,
not even achieving their musical identity, until they are headlining major festivals, in their own name.
They ignore human and earth traditions, all that symphonic and acoustic music and sounds, just to mercilessly
blast sound at physical levels, and pack a hot, arena or stadium crowd to enable crowd surfing or indulge in dramatic security.
I see this huge plunge into total electronics, what the sound of the band is, as not selling out,
but confining yourself to very limited electronic parameters.
Grind-core, factory, screamo, death-metal, psycho-delic and other genres of heavy metal,
need not worry about my estimation here, directed at heavy metal.
But that's so... so old.
And besides, even if Steppenwolf, who first used the term "heavy metal", came from less than a hundred miles away from here,
and wanted to ride down here for a visit, it's too snowy out right now, and you'll never catch me on a motorcycle in the winter.
That's white-out-rock, a snow-blind killer.
nicmead
New member
Im not sure i understand the point you are trying to make john watt.
Sacrificing credibility for success - is a clear definition, but does it take into account the fact that some artists are deemed selling out just for changing thier style?
I have found a survey on selling out if you would like me to post it on here?? let me know
Sacrificing credibility for success - is a clear definition, but does it take into account the fact that some artists are deemed selling out just for changing thier style?
I have found a survey on selling out if you would like me to post it on here?? let me know
John Watt
Member
Just the thought of a survey for selling out got me going.
Between the extremes of selling out, it's not a grey area, more of a green area.
Very green, if you're doing your own books.
nicmead! Don't be perplexed about not understanding the point I'm trying, or not trying, to make.
Once again, I'm way ahead of ordinary high tech proliferation, and typical online use.
Consider my content as facts, a data stream with a highly desirable, and regrettably rare, versatile personality.
A clouding of font that now cumulates as your first posting cloud.
You're looking at it, but it will never be the same again. And you'll be realizing that. I been there months ago.
Between the extremes of selling out, it's not a grey area, more of a green area.
Very green, if you're doing your own books.
nicmead! Don't be perplexed about not understanding the point I'm trying, or not trying, to make.
Once again, I'm way ahead of ordinary high tech proliferation, and typical online use.
Consider my content as facts, a data stream with a highly desirable, and regrettably rare, versatile personality.
A clouding of font that now cumulates as your first posting cloud.
You're looking at it, but it will never be the same again. And you'll be realizing that. I been there months ago.
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