64' Tromba in Nurnberg?

[smilingvox]

The large Steinmeyer at St. Lorenz in Nurnberg has a 21 1/3' Quint which they named 64' Tromba. A 21 1/3' added to a 32' produces a 64' tone usually called Resultant, but why call it "Tromba"?

Maybe it sounds a little like one in a certain part of the church? <shrug>

 

[Soubasse]

We have a resultant 64 in one of the church organs in Sth Australia and I can testify that there certainly are sweet spots in the building where the resultant effect is quite profound, other spots where you probably wouldn't notice (or possibly get it confused as the resultant effect of something strange you had for lunch)
This building is a fairly standard sized church (by miniscule Australian standards and by that I mean that many a "humble" school chapel in Europe/UK are larger than a lot of our cathedrals)

 

[Contratrombone64]

I find, in fact, that the sound of a resultant stop to be most unsatisfactory.

 

[Frederik Magle]

I find, in fact, that the sound of a resultant stop to be most unsatisfactory.

It's certainly a compromise and I agree that a resultant can never compare with a genuine 32' or 64' pipe - and I do agree that most 32' resultants can be described as unsatisfactory, with the "feel" of compromise.

However, generally I don't think of a 64' resultant combined of 32' and 21 1/3' as "unsatisfactory". Limited in use, of course, but the combination tone - or should I say "rumble" - does provide an effect in very large organs. If the alternative is no 64' at all, which to be realistic is the case most places, I think a 64' resultant stop is acceptable.

The option often does not take up any space since there are no extra pipes, or sometimes just a 21 1/3' rank, so the cost of the "stop" is very moderate at least compared to the enormous cost and space needed for a real 64'. So I say why not?

Regarding the topic at hand, the organ in St. Lorenz (full stop list here); I also find the use of the name "Tromba" puzzling. "Gravissima" or perhaps simply "Akustischen Bass" or "Akustikbass" would have been better and more appropriate options I think. "Tromba" is to me something quite different.

 

[smilingvox]

This organ I'm working on has a 10 2/3', which is wired from the Open Wood. I'm not really satisfied with its sound from the console, which is placed in front of the main organ. One day, however, as I was coming up the steps to the organ loft, somebody was using it and it sounded almost like a true 32'. It's good for reinforcing the 32' reed when full Pedal is played.

A Resultant can be very convincing if designed, and the voicing of the pipes involved is done, very carefully. Pipe placement can play a very crucial role as well. I have theorized that a strong 16' Open and a less powerful 10 2/3' Open would give a result (no puns here), which one might mistake for the real thing.

 

[smilingvox]

But my preference is the true 32' tone without acoustical effects. As for a Haskell-ized Open.... I have yet to hear one, but I have the feeling that that would be something I would approve.

 

[Krummhorn]

Kinda unrelated to the subject of 64' ranks, but since we have been mentioning mutations, I encountered a strange one on a 1949 Möller: 5 1/3 Quint in the pedal division. There are ample 16's (5 to be exact) and drawing the 5 1/3 didn't really do much for me, so I avoided the stop completely.

Has anyone else encountered this particular mutation, and for what purpose would this particular rank be used for or with?

 

[Soubasse]

Has anyone else encountered this particular mutation,

Yes

and for what purpose would this particular rank be used for or with?

I've no idea either. Would it be possible that your 5 1/3' was initially put in to provide a 16 ' resultant against an 8' and then they didn't bother getting rid of it (or re-using it for something else) when the 16s were put in? (ridiculous really, I know, but just a thought, albeit a stupid one).

Personally I've found the 16' + 10 2/3' combination to be at it's most effective in the bottom octave of the pedalboard - any higher and it becomes a little too obvious that it's a note plus a 5th, whereas the lower it goes, the less distinct it is as a pitch and the "heterodyning" can do its work.

 

[Krummhorn]

Not a stupid thought at all, Soubasse.

I've most commonly seen the 16' + 10 2/3' combination. This is the first encounter with the 5 1/3' rank - It's not wired, it's an actual rank of 32 pipes. Afaik, the original specification was never altered ... the organ was moved across the country to its present location, but the specs and pipe work remained extant.

I don't regularly play this instrument ... it's one I play a couple times a year for concerts or choral programs.

 

[Soubasse]

My only other thought for the 5 1/3' was for some sort of "Grosse Cornet decompose" ... on the pedals!! (?!) :crazy::nut:
I was initially confused (not difficult for me anyway) reading your post above, thinking "why are they using a full length 32' rank as 5 1/3' ?!" then I realised that you must have meant there are 32 pipes in number (d'oh!). I would have thought that with 5 ranks of 16', something like a 5 1/3' (particularly on the pedals) would be more than a little superfluous, but who knows what goes through the minds of an organ builder (maybe he was having a slow day and got bored ... ?)

 

[smilingvox]

.....5 1/3' was initially put in to provide a 16 ' resultant against an 8'.....

Many years ago, I was checking out a small 3-manual Gress-Miles, which has a 5 1/3' in the Pedal. In an attempt to produce a 16' Resultant, I drew it and the 8'. All I heard were the two pitches together, ppppffffff!! Unbeknownst to me at my young age, perhaps that wasn't G-M's or the organist's intention for the Pedal Quint.

In other cases, I've noticed it does very little or nothing to registrations I've heard, but that could have depended on what it was used with.

Next thing to come to mind is a CD I have, which was done at Sacre-Coeur by Daniel Roth. In one of the tracks, he demonstrates the 32'-series mutations, where, in this case, the 5 1/3' could be viewed as the 19th with the 4 4/7' "21st" right after it.

To be able to hear something effectively, it comes down to the voicing, placement and not to use it if you know it's going to be buried by other voices.

e.g. one wouldn't use a Flauto Dolce or an Aeoline with "English Swell" (Principal, Fourniture, Trumpets 16', 8, and 4') coupled to Great Diapason plenum and Tuba Mirabilis. Or add a 5 1/3' to a 16' Quintade, unless you have a thing for second harmonics.

Now, what does this have to do with the 64' Tromba, a thread about which I started? lol Maybe I've watched too much Rosanna Rosannadanna years ago. lol The things we've been discussing seem to have two connections... acoustical effects of two or more pitches and what our ears detect, or miss.

 

[Krummhorn]

Many years ago, I was checking out a small 3-manual Gress-Miles, which has a 5 1/3' in the Pedal. In an attempt to produce a 16' Resultant, I drew it and the 8'. All I heard were the two pitches together, ppppffffff!! Unbeknownst to me at my young age, perhaps that wasn't G-M's or the organist's intention for the Pedal Quint.

In other cases, I've noticed it does very little or nothing to registrations I've heard, but that could have depended on what it was used with.

Thanks for this information. I too could find no practical use for the 5 1/3' as a pedal stop on that organ ... and I haven't seen that particular rank in use on any other Möller's I've played over the years. That particular organ was originally installed in a Pentecostal Baptist church (it now resides in a Roman Catholic parish).

Now, what does this have to do with the 64' Tromba, a thread about which I started? lol Maybe I've watched too much Rosanna Rosannadanna years ago. lol The things we've been discussing seem to have two connections... acoustical effects of two or more pitches and what our ears detect, or miss.

Sorry It wasn't my intent to derail your thread - just a little side trip on a weird "resultant" I came across recently.

 

[hauptwerkIII]

I once played the organ at Hull City Hall, UK which has a Harmonics of 32' which was a pedal mixture stop, supposedly to sound like a 32' flue. I didn't think it was that impressive or like one, to be honest.

 

[acc]

Well, the Midmer-Losh in Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City, has a 64' stop whose lowest 22 notes consist of flue pipes, with the rest being reed pipes. But the flue pipes are voiced to make them sound more "reedy" (so that the transition cannot be heard).

Could it be that the 64' flue stop at St. Lorenz is voiced in a similar fashion?

 

[smilingvox]

Sorry It wasn't my intent to derail your thread - just a little side trip on a weird "resultant" I came across recently.

No sweat, Krummhorn. I tend to do that, too. Opens up more opportunities for more people to jump in and it keeps it interesting.

 

[smilingvox]

Well, the Midmer-Losh in Boardwalk Hall, Atlantic City, has a 64' stop whose lowest 22 notes consist of flue pipes, with the rest being reed pipes. But the flue pipes are voiced to make them sound more "reedy" (so that the transition cannot be heard).

Could it be that the 64' flue stop at St. Lorenz is voiced in a similar fashion?

First of all, the "64' Tromba" is really the addition of a 21 1/3' to the 32' Prinzipalbass, so the two stops together form a resultant.

And.....

Even if flue pipes were made for a 64' octave, the notes would be so deep, one really wouldn't be able to distinguish whether or not the tone is reedy.

 

[acc]

Yes, but in the Midmer-Losh, the transition occurs at the second A, i.e. at a pipe length of ca. 19'. And the fact that the Tromba at St. Lorenz is really a quint stop even makes the actual pipes three times smaller. So we're already pretty far from a 64' pipe size, and the matter of voicing becomes meaningful (at least for the notes that are not too close to bottom C).

Has anybody already been in Nuremberg and heard how this stop (or, rather, stop combination 32'+21'1/3) actually sounds?

(Another question is whether a 64' flue is really that indistinguishable from a 64' reed. When the frequency gets so low that you can distinguish individual "beats", I'd say that one goes "wowowowowowo..." and the other "tumptumptumptumptump...".)

 

[pcnd5584]

Kinda unrelated to the subject of 64' ranks, but since we have been mentioning mutations, I encountered a strange one on a 1949 Möller: 5 1/3 Quint in the pedal division. There are ample 16's (5 to be exact) and drawing the 5 1/3 didn't really do much for me, so I avoided the stop completely.

Has anyone else encountered this particular mutation, and for what purpose would this particular rank be used for or with?

Yes - on my own church organ. In this case, it is derived from the Pedal Bourdon.

It is about as useful as a chocloate teapot....

 

[Corno Dolce]

Lets see now if I can add a little twist to this conundrum of 5-1/3':

First off: A Chocolate Teapot...:lol::lol::lol:

Secondly: I have a notion only that a properly voiced and utilized 5-1/3' is supposed to reinforce the 8' tone. I'll gladly accept correction if this is a false premise.

Getting back to 64' Tromba: Could it be to taunt and vex stoplist nomenclature fanatics everywhere? :devil::lol:
Cheers,

CD

 

[Soubasse]

Don't why it's only just occured to me, but serious Hammond players would know all about 5-1/3 because it's in common usage on their famous drawbars. And in this instance, it works very well (even though technically it's misplaced since they put it between the 16' and the 8', not the 8' and the 4'). Maybe the builder who placed the 5 1/3 rank wanted to replicate "Whiter Shade of Pale" or Booker T or something!